Where does favoring superior products end and snobbery begin?

[Offfhand]

Snobbery can be described in a number of ways, with good examples for each. But regarding reloading equipment it is difficult to apply the label "snob" and make it stick. That's because the prices of reloading equipment are closely related to quality rather than just a "name." As an example of snobbery let's take Rolex watches. Sure, they are fine watches, but no way does the material and worksmanship in a Rolex equate the price. So their premium prices are for the snob effect, like "I can afford it" which may be important to some people. By comparison, the prices of reloading equipment is closely related to their materials, worksmanship and features. In other words, you can see why some tools cost more simply by looking at them, which you can't do by looking at, say a Rolex watch. Sure, some tools cost considerably more than others but the reason people are willing to pay more for certain tools is because they may offer certain features, material quality, accuracy and durability not available in cheaper tools. As an extreme example, perhaps, I'm attaching a photo of a RFD press. It costs a good bit more than most other presses but at the same time it offers unique features not available in other equipment and therefore the buyer wanting those features may consider the price a bargan. As a general rule for reloading equipment.."Beauty is often more than skin deep." So what might be considered tool "snobbery" may be only the pride and pleasure of using good equipment.

 

[762NATO]

As an extreme example, perhaps, I'm attaching a photo of a RFD press. It costs a good bit more than most other presses but at the same time it offers unique features not available in other equipment and therefore the buyer wanting those features may consider the price a bargan. As a general rule for reloading equipment.."Beauty is often more than skin deep." So what might be considered tool "snobbery" may be only the pride and pleasure of using good equipment.

Dang. I wanna lick that thing. Or something. It sure is purrty!!

What features does it offer over other presses? I'm not considering it since you said it's super expensive, but I'm curious.

 

[762NATO]

Forster has two accessories you might be interested in for their case trimmer (Original not Classic). One is the part that screws into where the handle goes and converts it to a drill. The other is a 3-way cutter (made for .223,.243,.308 so far) that trims, chamfers and deburrs all at once.

I'm dense. Thanks. It looks like Forster, Wilson and Hornady all have power adaptors, according to the Midway catalog. DUH!

 

[ranger335v]

"I have to disagree with that. I've used Snap-On, MAC, Matco and cheap tools. Cheap tools do not last as long and loose tolerances will cause you the round a nut or bolt long before a quality tool."

And I have to say you seem to have missed my whole point. Consider that as a rusty Snap-On wrench, in which the surface appearance means nothing.

7.62, it certainly includes dies, they are perhaps the simplist tools to make. All makers use standard SAAMI spec reamers bought from others and that's all that controls the inner dimenstions. All makers case harden the inner die walls, the "best" of them might last for some 300.000 rounds while Lee's less deeply cased sizers may only last for 200,000 rounds. Will you ever notice the difference? I sure don't!

Saying I or a buddy got better accuracy by switching to a different brand of dies only tells us the tolerances in the second set better matched the rifle, that was luck and not exactly the same as saying one brand is better than another. Next die set, same caliber-brand, may well be as poor a fit to the rifle as the original set. It takes a LOT of anything to statiscially "prove" any manufactoring difference, individual items vary too much.

About ten years ago I begged and borrowed twelve sets of .243 dies from several makers, Forster, Lee, Lyman, Pacific, RCBS. Herters and Savage Arms (yeah, they marketed reloading tools for a short time) to do a test run with my then new concentericity gage. I also made chamber casts of the sizers. I loaded, miked, gages and fired ten cases from each (same ten cases). Forster's comp dies were the "best" by a slight average on run-out, all of the rest were basically in the same range except the Savage set, they were definetly the poorest and it's no wonder they were ignored by the market pretty fast.

My total sample was far too small to say any brand is better than others but it was sure sufficent to prove none had any large advantage. The Lee one die set fell between the two RCBS sets for the ammo produced. ?? Wasn't what I expected, but there it was.

Anyone wanting to say their favorite is best needs to bring some data, not guesses or impressions or isolated instances, for proof.

I've bought a lot of used dies from the web and flea markets, maybe two dozen sets? Never had a problem that I couldn't fix easily. But today, buying used dies on Ebay is a poor deal, they will often sell for new prices, with shipping they commonly cost even more than new ones!

 

[EddieNFL]

And I have to say you seem to have missed my whole point. Consider that as a rusty Snap-On wrench, in which the surface appearance means nothing.

No, I got it. You originally said a cheap, rusty wrench works as well as a Snap-On. A rusty Snap-On versus a clean Snap-On is a different argument.

 

[EddieNFL]

But today, buying used dies on Ebay is a poor deal, they will often sell for new prices, with shipping they commonly cost even more than new ones!

I've seen people bid more than retail. Maybe those RCBS .30/06 dies really were rare.

 

[Offfhand]

Post from above:
"What features does it offer over other presses? I'm not considering it since you said it's super expensive, but I'm curious."

762Nato, I didn't say it is super expensive, or mean to imply that, only that it is somewhat more expensive than most presses. It has several nice features, mostly that it is quite lite and compact, measuring less than 6" from benchtop to top surface. The photo doesn't show clearly, but the base has two integral and very sturdy clamps for attaching to bench or other work surfaces. Making it highly portable and convenient for use at shooting range or anywhere else. (Which is why benchrest shooters love it. Plus the fact that even the clamps are beautifully made.) It is also a high leverage tool, considering its compact size, and extremely smooth operation. It is also easily adaptable to the JLC "click adjustable" (the knurled ring under the die) unit that allows precise and repeatable changes in degree of sizing without unscrewing and resetting the sizing die itself. And like you say, it's a cute thing to look at, but is this snobbery?

 

[BigJakeJ1s]

I would not recommend a Dillon seating die unless you have a Dillon press and tool head where it will be locked in its whole life. The lock ring is a simple hex nut (no set screw) that will lose the settings as soon as you remove it from the press. You also have to screw the whole die in and out of the press to adjust seating depth (rather coarse too).

If you load a lot of cast lead bullets, try the Hornady seating die. It also comes apart by removing a spring clip (at the bottom) for cleaning, and goes back together without affecting the settings. It has a sliding alignment sleeve, an excellent cross-bolt lock ring, and an optional micrometer seating adjustment. It can also crimp while you seat the bullet if you so desire.

I have some Lee stuff that I like, and some I don't. I like their collet-type neck sizing dies, collet type factory crimp dies for rifle and bottleneck pistol cartridges (but not their carbide FCD for straight wall pistol cartridges), Lee lock stud trimmer setup (for pistol cartridges when they need it, but I prefer the Wilson trimmer for rifle cartridges). The Lee Perfect Powder measure is plastic, but mine works amazingly well.

I dislike their seating dies (the seating plugs are shared between multiple calibers of bullets, so they do not center the bullets well at all). I abhor their die lock(less) rings. The Lee autoprime worked fine except it tires the thumb out quickly, so I replaced it with the RCBS universal hand primer which I like much better.

I have a Lee hand press which is poorly manufactured (mis-aligned ram & die hole), and the design allows too much flex in the frame to be able to feel when something is not right. It does work well for decapping cases with a unversal decapping die, though.

Even some of their products that I like, I would like even better (and pay more money for) if they were built with better finish and materials. The collet dies usually require me to polish the closer and the collet to get them to operate smoothly and consistently. The aluminum caps on them have minimal thread engagement, are weak and prone to breakage, especially if the collet is rough, which is often the case.

I have not tried their classic cast press, but I understand it is an outstanding reloading press, with features not found in presses twice its price. I use a Forster Co-Ax reloading press, and am extremely happy with it.

Andy

 

[EddieNFL]

The lock ring is a simple hex nut (no set screw) that will lose the settings as soon as you remove it from the press.

Pretty simple to add a setscrew. Even easier to switch to a different lockring. I like the Hornady rings with the flats.

I like the Hornady seater dies, as well. Just don't lose the retaining ring when you disassemble to clean.

 

[JimKirk]

Isn't being cheap a form of snobbery?

If I can be a snob for buying what I want...

Then cheap people can be snobs too...

for being cheap!

All goes back to the rifle guy...

Guy #1 buys a $1930.05 rifle ... then puts a $69.95 scope on it !

Guy #2 buys a $1104.01 rifle ... then puts a $895.99 scope on it !

Who's the snob? Who's the cheap Azz?

Jimmy K

 

[Offfhand]

JImKirk, you are spot on. Thank you. Reverse snobberly is absolute the worst kind and the most insulting. It's like the ultra rich people who run around in old pickup trucks (When they have a Rolls in the garage.) and pretending "look I'm just an ordinary guy, like you." Total bull hockey and insulting to guys like me who work hard and feel we've succeeded by owning a car, or reloading tool, we can be proud of owning and worked hard to get.

 

[Bush Pilot]

Offhand, do you know many people with a Rolls in the garage and drive an old pick-up? I actually know a guy with an 8 place jet and drives a 15 year old Toyota (BTW, he also drives a new BMW)

 

[Offfhand]

Bush Pilot, like you point out, they are not that all uncommon. Perhaps the best example was Sam Walton (founder of Wal-Mart) who drove a pickup to his headquarter offices in Arkansas.

 

[Bush Pilot]

How many people really know a "Sam Walton" type? The only reason I know this guy is because we're both in aviation. I still say people like that are uncommon.

 

[billybob44]

I have to disagree with that. I've used Snap-On, MAC, Matco and cheap tools. Cheap tools do not last as long and loose tolerances will cause you the round a nut or bolt long before a quality tool.

++1-Eddie speaks the truth on quality tools. The cheap tools MAY get the job done, but you are taking more chances using cheap tools. I use my tools to draw my paycheck, and yes most are Snap-On.........

 

[1SOW]

Where does favoring superior products end and snobbery begin?

When the buyer gets no "benefit" out of the expensive "benefits".

 

[EddieNFL]

How many people really know a "Sam Walton" type?

Not Walmart wealthy, but I have a good friend who lives in a 4-5 million dollar house and drives an '02 Chevy truck. Unless you've been to his house you would never have an inkling.

 

[RustyFN]

How many people really know a "Sam Walton" type? The only reason I know this guy is because we're both in aviation. I still say people like that are uncommon.

I would say it depends on where you live. In West Virginia I will probably never meet anybody like that. When I lived in San Francisco we had some friends where she was worth 10 mil from selling 128,000 acres that she owned and her husband was a Dentist and was worth 10 mil himself. They had a fancy house and cars but mostly drove a Chevy pickup. When we would go camping she would carry her money in her pocket in an old gas bill envelope. We also knew another couple through them and he was one of the engineers that designed the rover vehicle that they drove on the moon. They were also down to earth people.

 

[LiveLife]

Do you think we'll ever sit around a BBQ and drink beer together? red, blue, green, another shade of red, black, etc.

 

[lgbloader]

To the OP-

Tell you what, get an old Lee Challenger press, the really old one with no breech locks and then get yourself a Redding Big Boss II or Co-AX. See for yourself and you be the judge. otherwise we will be pissing and moaning all damn night and no one will get any sleep. Each person can draw their own conclussions in this Lee vs Dillon vs Hornady vs who the hell cares... Does it really matter what every else thinks? Learn to think for yourself.

Sorry for sounding like a grouchy old man, I am just airing the dirty laundry.

LGB

 

[7.62 Nato]

But most important, get some manuals, read them so you know what you're doing, and be safe.

 

[sonick808]

no room for snobbery in handloading IMO.

Too much at stake to clutter the important stuff. Besides, any snobbery you encounter will be in response to the audacity of Lee to offer superior products at an entry level price

Anyway, I think your friend is dead wrong. Whatever does the job best for you within your budget is what you should use. Lee is a great starting point, and more often than not an excellent ending point as well.

 

[Seedtick]

But most important, get some manuals, read them so you know what you're doing, and be safe.

AND

get ready to have a GREAT TIME!!

ST

 

[twofifty]

Doesn't it all begin and end with our own attitude toward ourselves & others?

 

[lykoris]

Post 51 by Offfhand is the best response to the question asked by this thread in my opinion.

As another example take the following

Louis Vitton bags.
45% of the retail price of each bag is pure profit,
55% of the price covers materials/manufacture, distribution costs, eccentric advertising to lure customers to a brand, administrative expenses etc.

I'd like to know the margin/mark-up on reloading equipment between manufacturers.