Where to find light loads for old guns?

[rromeo]

I picked up a 1905 Ithaca 10 gauge with Damascus barrels. Where can I find low power shells to shoot in this? I heard of RST, but they're out of 10 right now. Is there anyone else?

Thanks.

Don't worry, I'll have photos later.

 

[rule303]

RST is the only source I know of for loaded ammo. At $4 a shot, it would be well worth reloading for if you are going to shoot it more than a few times. Ballistic Products stocks all the components to load the short 10.
Make sure to have your gun checked over by a competent double gun smith before you fire it.

 

[rromeo]

Thanks. I don't think I'll be shooting enough to load my own. A box is all I planned to get.
I'll keep checking with them.

 

[rcmodel]

Tread lightly.
100+ year old Damascus barrel's, even the best of them, are known to let go occasionally.

And when they do, it is Always right under your left hand holding the forearm.
I have known three people over the years with missing fingers & an eye in one case, who just had to try shooting them.

The problem is, it is very difficult or impossible to tell if corrosion has ate away welds in the seams of the wrapped layers of iron / steel over the years.

Perhaps industrial X-ray could spot voids in the metal.
But you sure can't spot it looking down the barrels!

Some say if you strike them, and they 'ring' they are still solid internally.
If they 'thud' they are not safe to shoot.

Myself?
The difference between a ring with one bad defect in it, and thud with enough to make it sound that way is not great enough to risk my only left hand & eyes!

rc

 

[230RN]

In the days when a Damascus barrel was a sign of high quality, some "Damascus" barrels were actually made out of fluid steel (real steel from a molten state) and the Damascus pattern in the surface finish was added later.*

I'm not sure how one goes about non-destructive testing of this. I remember that removing some surface patterning in a non-obvious part of the barrel... say, that which is covered by the forearm, would reveal the truth. You might snap the forearm off and check down there to see if any former owner has performed this test already. (As I remember it, you spot-polish off the steel, then apply cold blueing. If the pattern re-appears, it is a true wrought-iron Damascus.)

In some instances, wrought iron Damascus patterned steel was wrapped over a fluid steel barrel, and these are more difficult to tell from a real Damascus barrel because the patterning runs deeper.

I suppose, without actually knowing, that some magnetic testing (magnefluxing) can be done, as well.

I also recollect that even "light" smokeless loads in a true Damascus barrel are dangerous since the pressure curves of BP loads versus smokeless loads are quite different. In addition, corrosion can occur inside the barrel's metal where the "slag" (which formed the Damascus patterning) can be penetrated by moisture, etc. This made any older Damascus barrel dangerous even with proper BP loads.

My advice, frankly, is to disable the gun's firing mechanism and hang it on a wall. I had a 16-ga Ithaca Damascus double barrel once which I fired with light smokeless loads and it was only later** that I found out that any smokeless loads were dangerous and I got rid of it as being non-utilitarian.

Terry

*This is the same process they use to put the elegant patterning on fake Samurai swords.
** Before the internet, from reading gun mags and inquiry to the NRA.

 

[clang]

You might prefer to pick up a set of Gauge Mates adapters and shoot 12 ga from your old double. I believe the website is gaugemate.com

spend the 100 bucks and shoot the gun all you want with cheap 12 ga ammo.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Tread lightly.
100+ year old Damascus barrel's, even the best of them, are known to let go occasionally.

And when they do, it is Always right under your left hand holding the forearm.
I have known three people over the years with missing fingers & an eye in one case, who just had to try shooting them.

The problem is, it is very difficult or impossible to tell if corrosion has ate away welds in the seams of the wrapped layers of iron / steel over the years.

Perhaps industrial X-ray could spot voids in the metal.
But you sure can't spot it looking down the barrels!

Some say if you strike them, and they 'ring' they are still solid internally.
If they 'thud' they are not safe to shoot.

Myself?
The difference between a ring with one bad defect in it, and thud with enough to make it sound that way is not great enough to risk my only left hand & eyes!

rc

This is worth taking into consideration.

I have only one twist steel barrel shotgun I shoot, and I didn't just take it afield and start blasting.

It is an LC Smith hammer double 10 gauge, and I did quite a lot of testing before use.



The barrels looked great and had a nice ring to them, but that wasn't enough for me. So I took diameter measurements at a dozen points on each barrel, marked with tape so that I could check the same points repeatedly. I then strapped the thing to a lead sled and fired a shell in each tube. Took measurements again, and when everything was the same to within the 0.0005" accuracy of the micrometer, I fired 5 more shells in each tube. Measured again, no change, 10 more shells per tube. This was with 2-7/8" Bismuth shells.

After each tube had fired 16 shells with no measurable signs of fatigue, I decided the gun was safe enough, but transitioned to even lower pressure RST loads. I have since fired dozens of shells, and the old double still seems to be as solid as it was 130 years ago.

Nonetheless, I do not hold this shotgun like I would a modern double, just in case. I wear a leather glove, and I keep my support hand tucked under the forearm, no fingers wrapping the barrel. If it did let go, I'm sure it would still hurt, but the chances of serious, crippling injury to the support hand are far lower. The 9 pound shotgun firing light loads does not require a particularly firm grip toward the front anyway.

There's no reason to not enjoy an old double, but one needs to understand the risks and act accordingly.

 

[rromeo]

Thank you all for the advice. This will end up as a wall hanger, but I always like to put a few rounds down all of my guns. It just seems like a crime against humanity not to.

 

[B-man '06]

light loads

buffalo arms has black powder shells. also polywad and ballistic products have lighter smokeless loads for old guns. though from a machinist's perspective the gauge mate idea sounds the safest.

 

[Jim Watson]

Anecdotes:
My neighbor the gunsmith had a Damascus gun with a plug blown out of the left barrel just about where your left thumb would be in a normal shooting stance. He kept it on the wall to remind customers why they should not push their luck with the old guns.

The local muzzleloading rifle expert referred to an old American Rifleman article with pressure curves for several powders, including black. He picked the one that neither peaked not progressed at any higher pressure than black and loaded it with the softest cushion wad on the market. He shot this load routinely in a sound condition Damascus Remington.

And the third option was the guy who loaded black powder for his very modern looking Damascus hammerless Ithaca.

 

[MachIVshooter]

though from a machinist's perspective the gauge mate idea sounds the safest.

It's also the most economical. I use RST 10 ga loads for hunting, but for playing, I use 20 ga inserts and run normal 2-3/4" low brass loads. With such a light payload and way undersize wad & cup, there's no pressure concerns. Also, running light 20 ga loads in a 9 pound double produces felt recoil like a 5.56 AR.

 

[RWBlue01]

This may be an extremely dumb idea.......

Could someone make you a shotgun tube reducer?

http://www.briley.com/subgaugetubesets.aspx

I don't see it on the briley site, but I would think a 10ga to 410 or maybe a 20ga full length tube set would make the gun safe to shoot.

As I said, this may be a dumb idea.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Could someone make you a shotgun tube reducer?

http://www.briley.com/subgaugetubesets.aspx

I don't see it on the briley site, but I would think a 10ga to 410 or maybe a 20ga full length tube set would make the gun safe to shoot.

As I said, this may be a dumb idea.

They exist, they just don't come cheap. Last time I looked, about $600 for a pair.

 

[oneounceload]

You could always have the barrels sleeved

 

[Jim Watson]

Briley charges $1950 for that. Or $2100 if you want to take it down to 12 ga for more common shells. If they will do a 10 ga at all, which you would have to ask about.

I doubt they would tool up to build you a skeet tube type insert for a 10.

Gaugemate will make you a 10 to 12 chamber adapter.
At one time you could get 12 gauge barrels overbored so big as to use 10 gauge choke tubes. The modern plastic wad will seal if it is not too cold.
Which brings up a good question; if the wad seals the 12 ga load in the 10 ga barrel, is pressure lowered enough to be safe in the Damascus barrel?

 

[oneounceload]

At one time you could get 12 gauge barrels overbored so big as to use 10 gauge choke tubes.

I know a shooting friend who has 390 with a Baker 10 gauge barrel designed for 12 gauge ammo on it - needless to say it is extremely overbored

 

[rromeo]

 

[WestKentucky]

Really nice wall decoration is all I can say for sure. I might try dye penetrant to show some structural issues but that would be hard to see on a used barrel. Easy to see after removing remaining blue but that destroys the guns value. If I were to be the owner I would ask around to find a 10ga loader and make a visit with a $20 bill. You could load to 12 or 16ga specs and be much safer than firing anything store bought. At least by making your own you see what the charges are and have an idea on pressure and recoil. Recoil can be an issue on old dried out stocks too as cracks are not always easy to find until it's too late.

 

[oneounceload]

At least by making your own you see what the charges are and have an idea on pressure and recoil.

Unless you test that ammo in that gun with the correct equipment, you'll never know what the pressures are. While the Vintagers and similar groups all shoot 100+ year old guns, many with Damascus barrels using RST light loads, those guns have been checked by a competent smith who knows old guns. Until something like that has been thoroughly checked, it is best left as a wall decoration until it passes muster.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I might try dye penetrant to show some structural issues but that would be hard to see on a used barrel.

It would be impossible to see where the issue usually is; between the barrels, under the brazed ribs. It is there that the leftover flux from the initial sintering of the steel strips and then the brazing of the joining ribs will hang out for decades, eating at the metal because there was no way to thoroughly clean it out.

Also, both primers and the black powder of the day were very corrosive to the insides of the tubes

You could load to 12 or 16ga specs and be much safer than firing anything store bought.

Not true at all. Yes, the lighter shot payload will reduce pressure some, but it's still gonna be a whole lot higher than the original BP loads.

 

[Sunray]

Real damascus barrels are unsafe to shoot with any ammo. Even or more likely especially BP loads.
Dye penetrant will not show microscopic cracks etc that are rusty.

 

[oneounceload]

Real damascus barrels are unsafe to shoot with any ammo

That is simply just FALSE as a blanket statement. There are many still in use (albeit it limited use) in the uplands, on the clay courses and other places where folks have fun with them. I suggest you attend a Vintagers SxS shoot or one of the Southern SxS or similar shoots to see 100+ year old guns in action and doing just fine.

 

[Virginian]

There is NO known proven way to effectively non destructive test a Damascus barrel. Drew House had a very long thread on the Doublegun BBS and linked on Shotgunworld explaining where he has expended a lot of time and money pursuing this; thus far without conclusive results. No gunsmith I know of has X-ray vision, and him looking at it isn't going to tell you squat about the barrel's integrity. I do not know of anyone who can do a dye pen on the inside of the barrel. UT can't do it. Until a method is proven, I ain't shooting any Damascus barrel gun. Unacceptable risk in my book. You can do whatever you like.