Which 9xinfinity?? 9x23, 9x25, .356TSW, 9mm Super comp??

[patentnonsense]

I'm starting a fresh thread because I'm really curious about very-high-velocity 9mm loadings, and doubletap.com (bless 'em) has just started offering 9x25 Dillon:

Their claimed ballistics for 9x25 are:

Bullet : 115gr. Gold Dot, 125gr. Gold Dot, 147gr. Gold Dot

Ballistics : 1825fps/ 850 ft.lbs, 1700fps / 802 ft.lbs, 1525fps/ 760 ft.lbs - 6" BarSto

I can't seem to find comparable numbers for the 9x23 - does anyone have these handy?

Thanks,

 

[bradvanhorn]

Try Dane Burns for info on the 9x23.

http://www.burnscustom.com/9x23.html

Those 9x25 numbers you posted are going to be hard to compare, because they are from a 6" barrel. Most of the numbers I see posted are usually from 5" (or less) barrels. So, the 9x25 is probably going to be skewed high in comparison.

I haven't shot either 9x23 or 9x25, so I only have heresay to go by. I've heard recoil with the 9x23 is more like a 9mm +p+ or a hot .38 Super, whereas the 9x25 is more like a .357 mag.

If you're building a custom gun, make sure the 9-whatever will be suitable. For example, IPSC seems to require guns starting with "4" in the caliber to be competitive. Nevertheless, if it were me, I'd take the 9x23 in a "9" caliber, or a 10mm, if I were building a custom gun. That's just me of course...

Good Luck!

 

[patentnonsense]

Yes, I had been looking at Burns' website - it's very interesting! One of the most attractive points about the 9x23 is that it's spec'd to use rifle-like pressures, which seems to imply that it should far outperform the 9x25 if other things are equal. But I'd still like to see the numbers.

 

[tex_n_cal]

9x23's 125 grains, fired in a SA 5" Mil-Spec. They chrono'd about 1475fps. Either the primers were bad, or they were too hot.

 

[patentnonsense]

Wow that's ugly!

Are those factory or handloads?

Burns' website recommends rifle primers for 9x23, and I think maybe you've just shown us a good reason why?

 

[Tamara]

One of the most attractive points about the 9x23 is that it's spec'd to use rifle-like pressures, which seems to imply that it should far outperform the 9x25 if other things are equal.

Except all other things aren't equal, in that the 9x25 Dillon operates at fairly high pressures itsownself, and has much more case capacity, to boot.

Of course, while the 9x25 produces gobs of high-pressure gas to drive a big comp very efficiently, you give up the magazine capacity of the smaller-diameter 9x23, plus 9x25 tears up barrels like nobody's business. If you're shooting at the volumes of a serious USPSA Open Class competitor, you'd better have a sponsor for your barrels.

 

[tex_n_cal]

'em were Win. factory loads I think I'll roll my own from now on.

It was a real pain as the blown primer bits jammed the firing pin hole. You had to dry fire the gun while empty so the firing pin would push the little disks of primer out of the firing pin hole so it could shoot again. I was glad I only bought ONE box of that stuff.

My SA has a ramped barrel so it held up to the loads just fine, but it was still crappy ammo. Yeah I would vote for rifle primers.

 

[farscott]

I have had good luck with the Winchester factory 9x23 Winchester loads, both of which push a 124/125-grain bullet to 1450 fps out of a five-inch barrel in my Precision Gunworks 9x23/9x19 1911. My reloads are a bit hotter, hitting 1480-1500 fps. I have not used rifle primers.

 

[eerw]

I have a couple of 9x23's..I have not pierced primes like tex-n-Cal..but have seen them get pretty flat..from a 5" gun..I get the neighborhood of 1450-1470 with the 125 silvertip factory load and 1480 to 1520 with the 125 softpoint..

my reloads use a 115 and 124 going about 1450..I use WIN brass and small rifle primers and have no issues at all..

when 9x23 was big..they were shooting 115s about 1450 to 1500 fps using over 10 grains of powder..I was told the barrels were lasting too long...as the burning powder was eating barrels and comps..

it was an extremely flat shooter and had its avantage in quicker shots at farther distances.

 

[eerw]

I have a couple of 9x23's..I have not pierced primes like tex-n-Cal..but have seen them get pretty flat..from a 5" gun..I get the neighborhood of 1450-1470 with the 125 silvertip factory load and 1480 to 1520 with the 125 softpoint..

my reloads use a 115 and 124 going about 1450..I use WIN brass and small rifle primers and have no issues at all..

when 9x23 was big..they were shooting 115s about 1450 to 1500 fps using over 10 grains of powder..I was told the barrels were not lasting too long...as the burning powder was eating barrels and comps..

it was an extremely flat shooter and had its avantage in quicker shots at farther distances..but stages in recent times brought high round counts and closer targets so mag capacity became a bigger factor in matches..so the 38 super/9x stayed dominant..in USPSA open division..

and 9x25 isn;t legal in limited division competitions..

 

[WonderNine]

Isn't the 9X23 supposed to use small rifle primers? Doesn't Winchester use small rifle primers in their factory 9X23???

How old was that stuff tex_n_cal?

 

[patentnonsense]

Burns' site says:

Winchester 9x23 is designed to take 48,000 CUP. And in Winchester's own words, "The strongest case ever built for a center fire cartridge". Amazing how much the 223 case and a 9x23 Win case look alike when dissected.

SAAMI pressure spec for 10mm is 36,000 CUP. (So I read from http://www.home.earthlink.net/~gnappi/10mmtips.htm.) If that's the pressure limit for 10mm, it has to be the limit for its neck-down too. So unless the 9x23W is running out of gas (in a long barrel), it should theoretically have 30% more energy that 9x25D, no?

But the numbers posted on the doubletap site are FAR superior to the 9x23 numbers on Burns' site. Apples to apples:

From Burns' examples of reloading data, 9x23 MV for 125g from a 5" barrel is around 1450 fps (highest is 1464);

From doubletap.com's data, they claim 1700 fps for 125g.

Seems like a no-brainer choice, eh? So maybe case capacity IS relevant.

So now I just need to talk someone into making 9x25 barrels for my Megastar!

And I still want to see what performance a 95g buller what get in 9x25.

 

[tex_n_cal]

How old? beats me, it was factory ammo, and the stuff was probably made around the same time as the first 9x23 loads. This round wasn't introduced until, what, the late 1990's?

The chrono read about the same velocity as what you guys are gettings, so I doubt the loads were grossly over-pressure. Maybe Win on that batch erred and used small pistol primers?

As much as I like the 10mm, I think the 9x25 would be a fun addition. When I am a bit better settled I might just acquire one of those Kimber 10mm's with adjustable sights, and fit a 9x25 barrel to it.

 

[WonderNine]

SAAMI pressure spec for 10mm is 36,000 CUP. (So I read from http://www.home.earthlink.net/~gnappi/10mmtips.htm.) If that's the pressure limit for 10mm, it has to be the limit for its neck-down too.

You're forgetting though, that as case capacity decreases, pressure increases. Also the 9X23 case is stronger and is SUPPOSED to use higher pressure primers.

 

[patentnonsense]

You're forgetting though, that as case capacity decreases, pressure increases.

No, I'm following a different relation. (What you're talking about is the relation which causes overpressure when a bullet is seated too deeply.)

What I'm saying is a simple relation of interior ballistics:
For a given bore size and barrel length, the energy in a bullet is limited by the maximum pressure applied to it. (Total energy will include a spin energy component, so this number will always be somewhat larger than the muzzle energy in tables.)

This doesn't mean that max pressures will never be exceeded, nor that the barrels are frictionless, nor that the powder combustion is perfect -

it just means that the pressure limits (if obeyed) are one component of what limits muzzle energy. Higher pressure limits can allow higher muzzle energy IF we can take advantage of them.

Also the 9X23 case is stronger and is SUPPOSED to use higher pressure primers.

Correct - so I'm asking, why does 9x25 have better ballistics??

 

[farscott]

Yeah, I made a mistake in my post above. I am using WSR (Winchester Small Rifle) primers in my 9x23 loads. That is what happens when I go by memory; I get it wrong.

 

[cxm]

9x23

I have two 9x23s and have done a lot of load development...so maybe I can helphere

With the Speer 124gr bullet designed for the .357 SIG I can get around 1750 fps with no indications of over pressure.

I have gotten higher velociites but with some cratehring etc.

With a Bar-Sto barrel the high velocity does not seem to be a problem.

The 9x23 is an impressive performer, great penetration with the right bullet (blasts right thru a railroad tie) and huge expansion with different bullets.

I doubt a necked down 10mm will have much to offer in terms of improvement... I expect the "NEW" 9x25 will be the answer to a question taht was never asked. The original 9x25 introduced by Mauser nearly 100 years ago was very powerful as well...

In addition the new round's bottle neck case will be a negative for it as well.

FWIW

Chuck