Birddog1911
Member
For the price of a Bushy you can get a standard BCM carbine, and have superior materials and workmanship. Is Bushy bad; no. But they are not at the same level as BCM, DD, Colt, or others.
Which AR15 to Get?
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Birddog1911
Member
I'm sorry, but to lump Bushmaster, RRA, Armalite, Stag, and Del-ton in with Vulcan/Hesse/Blackthorne and Olympics is foolish. The differences are so great to describe them would require a different thread. Hell, the first 3 brands that I listed build rifles for service rifle competition; that in itself says something. They do not have the reputation for turning out garbage like the others, and don't deserve to even be listed together.
I would not suggest an AR platform of any brand.......maybe a RUGER SR556(maybe). Get a SIG556 or ACR or SCAR. Wanting to own an AR is like wanting to date a cheerleader. She looks hot, but you find out real quick she is quite bitchy and superficial. Smile everyone, it's the truth.
Birddog1911
Member
This is so stupid on it's face, that I only respond so that others don't actually think that you know what you're talking about.
Zerodefect
member
I have no idea what you mean.
But I know an AR can spend every dollar you give it very quickly.
I was trying to use a metaphor about how my experiences with the AR platform have been. If he wants to buy a weapon to take to the range to spend a few shells the AR is probably a fun gun. But if he is looking for a serious investment I would suggest spending the extra money for a weapon that has solved all the issues that an AR is known for. If you are not aware that AR type weapons are not "bitchy" in the field you better do some research. The ACR or SCAR are the new improved versions designed around all the good aspects of the AR platform but including the much needed improvements needed for a quality reliable field weapon. But it sounds like his friend is impatient and he is getting way to much positive feedback on a substandard outdated platform. Like I said, smile, life it too short to be hasty.
This is so stupid on it's face, that I only respond so that others don't actually think that you know what you're talking about.
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Hey Birddog 1911. What are your prices for Duracoat. You can send me a private message for a quote. I want digital camo on an FN P90.
I am thinking of trying it myself, but if you are a pro, I possibly be willing to pay someone who has experience in the art.
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Ask me about stock painting and refinishing! Now offering Duracoat finishes!
Hey Birddog 1911. What are your prices for Duracoat. You can send me a private message for a quote. I want digital camo on an FN P90.
I am thinking of trying it myself, but if you are a pro, I possibly be willing to pay someone who has experience in the art.
kwelz
Member
Not saying they are all equally bad, but I am saying I would not recommend any of them.
I mentioned some other guns, like AK, FAL, and M1A, but I think he's set on the AR. I did forget to mention the SIG556, SCAR, and ACR, so I will let him know about those too. I don't want this to turn into an AR vs. "New Carbines" thread, so I will just say I am not entirely impressed by the "New Carbines" (yet), though I will attempt to give him an objective opinion.
Also, I very much doubt he'd build one. I've mentioned it as a possibility and it has been rejected before (very busy with work, not his nature), but I can always mention it again. When the time comes for my own AR I was thinking I'd build one actually.
Also, I very much doubt he'd build one. I've mentioned it as a possibility and it has been rejected before (very busy with work, not his nature), but I can always mention it again. When the time comes for my own AR I was thinking I'd build one actually.
rtn
Member
No one else has asked this so I will: what does he want to do with it? I shoot a White Oak service rifle upper ($700) on a lower I put together. Including the Geissele 2-stage trigger the rifle set me back about $1,300. There is nothing tacticool about it, but it will do whatever the shooter is capable of doing. Good luck.
http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/
http://prostores3.megawebservers.co...se-10/National-Match-Service-Rifle/Detail.bok
http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/
http://prostores3.megawebservers.co...se-10/National-Match-Service-Rifle/Detail.bok
AR27
Member
BCM!
Birddog1911
Member
Your metaphor has absolutely no basis other than internet BS, plain and simple. And yes, I've used the M16/AR15 platform in the field for 18 years. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the direct impingement gas system; never has been. There is no reason to replace them with some half baked, half tested piston system in a rifle that was never designed to be run that way. All it takes is some simple maintaining to keep it running like a top. Don't believe me? Just check out Filthy 14 that belongs to Pat Rogers. I haven't cleaned my latest BCM carbine since I purchased it, and it's still running flawlessly.I was trying to use a metaphor about how my experiences with the AR platform have been. If he wants to buy a weapon to take to the range to spend a few shells the AR is probably a fun gun. But if he is looking for a serious investment I would suggest spending the extra money for a weapon that has solved all the issues that an AR is known for. If you are not aware that AR type weapons are not "bitchy" in the field you better do some research. The ACR or SCAR are the new improved versions designed around all the good aspects of the AR platform but including the much needed improvements needed for a quality reliable field weapon. But it sounds like his friend is impatient and he is getting way to much positive feedback on a substandard outdated platform. Like I said, smile, life it too short to be hasty.
By the way, the ACR that you mention has not been adopted as a US military rifle platform, and they have been recalled by Bushmaster. The SCAR was dropped as an overall platform, other than the 7.62 version. I have yet to see anything on the ACR that could be called an improvement over the AR rifle platform. You're whole speculation of "needed improvements needed for a quality reliable field weapon" is absolute garbage. But don't let facts get in the way of internet speculation.
HorseSoldier
Member
If your friend also has little or no experience with ARs and is already enthusiastic about the piston gun silliness, he may be beyond salvation.
FlyinBryan
Member
there ya go, fixed.
FlyinBryan
Member
this has been my experience.
(well, not the filthy 14 part) but i have 2 gas impingment rifles right now with a combine 15000 rounds and never a single stop. not a ftf, not a fte, never so much as a bump on the f.a........ nothing. absolutely perfect.
the gas impingment system is proven to be absolutely reliable, even with poor maintanence. (just a little oil every now and then, but every rifle must be lubed to be expected to run)
if you need to be told to lube a rifle, you should probably be reminded to load it and pull the trigger when you want it to go bang
AR27
Member
That analogy is pretty funny. I laughed, and not at it, it was truly funny. but i dont agree, my M16A4 ran like a champ from the day it was issued. thanks for the laugh though
LOL...You might be on to something there, flyinbryan.
The gun culture is sloooowwww to accept the new, and fanatical about defending the old. Brand loyalty is HUGE!
For example, Colt is the "hallowed" manufacturer, but objective scrutiny would say that Colt isn't really anything special at this point. They get the free ride for their history.
BCM enjoys a great reputation, but it is because they made a quality product at a much lower cost than the Colt. They are still riding high on this reputation for quality and are now canonized as the go to internet brand. Their prices have gone up now and other companies are producing just as good or better, but don't get the love because of the slowness of the gc to adopt the new. Daniel Defense and Spikes Tactical are clear examples of this.
Daniel Defense puts out the highest overall quality AR I have seen with amazing attention to fit and finish. It comes in at around nearly the same price or just a touch above BCM, but it doesn't get the same respect BCM does. Did I mention the gc is ssslllloooowww to embrace?
Spikes Tactical is in the same boat, but in a different way. Spikes has figured out BCM's old business model...how to create an equal quality product as BCM at a lower price. Despite this additional value and the most comprehensive listing of certifications I have ever seen released to the public, they are always mentioned as "nearly" the quality of BCM. I have yet to hear anyone who owns and runs both brands to rank them as anything less than equals. Slowness to adopt and stubborn brand loyalty to BCM are the only "nearly" BCM quality that Spikes is missing.
The other rifles are being neglected because of an inability to conceive of an AR not intended for some post apocalyptic scenario, regardless of how they perform. Bushmaster, DPMS, and Rock River are in this group. They are good enough to be issue weapons for LE, and if you are looking for precision or varmint weapons, they are perhaps at the top of the list. They are more than sufficient for gaming and normal usage.
The gun culture is sloooowwww to accept the new, and fanatical about defending the old. Brand loyalty is HUGE!
For example, Colt is the "hallowed" manufacturer, but objective scrutiny would say that Colt isn't really anything special at this point. They get the free ride for their history.
BCM enjoys a great reputation, but it is because they made a quality product at a much lower cost than the Colt. They are still riding high on this reputation for quality and are now canonized as the go to internet brand. Their prices have gone up now and other companies are producing just as good or better, but don't get the love because of the slowness of the gc to adopt the new. Daniel Defense and Spikes Tactical are clear examples of this.
Daniel Defense puts out the highest overall quality AR I have seen with amazing attention to fit and finish. It comes in at around nearly the same price or just a touch above BCM, but it doesn't get the same respect BCM does. Did I mention the gc is ssslllloooowww to embrace?
Spikes Tactical is in the same boat, but in a different way. Spikes has figured out BCM's old business model...how to create an equal quality product as BCM at a lower price. Despite this additional value and the most comprehensive listing of certifications I have ever seen released to the public, they are always mentioned as "nearly" the quality of BCM. I have yet to hear anyone who owns and runs both brands to rank them as anything less than equals. Slowness to adopt and stubborn brand loyalty to BCM are the only "nearly" BCM quality that Spikes is missing.
The other rifles are being neglected because of an inability to conceive of an AR not intended for some post apocalyptic scenario, regardless of how they perform. Bushmaster, DPMS, and Rock River are in this group. They are good enough to be issue weapons for LE, and if you are looking for precision or varmint weapons, they are perhaps at the top of the list. They are more than sufficient for gaming and normal usage.
yeti
Member
I'm pleased with my S&W M&P 15, but then I'm still happy with my old Colt Sporter II.
Perseverance
Member
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Piston rifles are not new technology, it being new has nothing to do with it not being accepted. The action it's trying to replace is not broken and is still serving.
My choices for brands in order: Noveske, LaRue, BCM, LMT, DD, Colt, Spikes.
My choices for brands in order: Noveske, LaRue, BCM, LMT, DD, Colt, Spikes.
Birddog1911
Member
Volk, I feel that you're actually wrong in one respect. Perhaps it is just this site, but on the "big" AR site, and in shooting circles, DD is held in just as high a regard as BCM, Colt, LMT, etc. Shoot, if Smartgunner had been running that deal that they have now a couple of months ago, I'd have a DD instead of a BCM, and I'd be just as happy.
Most talk I see of Spikes is for their lowers, but they do as well put out a great product. I'd have to say though, in my limited experience, I don't think that BCM has raised their prices. Of course, I could have just missed the increase. Still a great product for the price, though.
Here is the reasoning that went behind my purchasing a BCM carbine. I was going to spend the money to get a top notch carbine, and accessorize it to meet my needs. I don't have the desire to have half a dozen or more carbines, so one has to do what many can do. I wanted to buy the best; I looked at a Colt 6920, but I already knew that I would be putting a long free float rail on it. So, I already knew that I was going to have to change, or cut down, the FSB, buy the rail, install it, and go through all of the rigamarow.
But wait. BCM has the same unbeatable quality and stringent testing of materials that Colt has. They also offer many different configurations. It turned out that I could get an upper receiver built just the way I wanted it, and the complete rifle would come in at a price lower than what a Colt would cost me; not to mention the cost of changing it to match my needs.
Daniel Defense and Smartgunner do this as well. Personally, I see BCM and Smartgunner as the dealers of the future. You can start with the base model, and taylor your build to just what you want. This way you don't have to buy a standard carbine or rifle, and do all of the work and increase your costs. This is a great way to go when you know that your going to have a rig that is far from standard. "Oh, and not only will we build it for you to your specifications, we'll do it for what a "recreation" rifle will cost you!" Hard to beat that, isn't it?
I've laid out the above so that folks who are less familiar, but want to buy, an AR platform can see that there are a great deal of options out there. Sorry that I went so long.
EWO
Member
Wahoo95 said:
Do you have a link to these prices? I went on their website and couldn't find them.
Thanks,
Erik
It was asked "What's it for?" and answered, "home defense and plinking."
That means discussing features. The AR has better operator control layout than any other battle carbine. DI or Piston, whatever. As long as it's reliable, that's what counts. Modern well built DI guns work just fine, the Army has been using them for 45 years. Modern Piston adaptations to the AR have some problems. Designed from the ground up piston guns like the SCAR and ACR have less. SOCOM started the program and still dropped the SCAR -L. "It does the same thing as the M4, oh well, we get that for free already."
Moving on to features in a Home Defense and Plinking gun. First, there is no such thing as a Home Defense gun - unless you include all the millions of pistols, revolvers, and shotguns. Go to a home defense forum, those are the first line of firearms defense.
That really leaves plinking, a M4gery with handguards for $599 from CMMG, known as the Bargain Bin special, will do it all. Cheap ammo, looks pretty cool, shoots the range a couple of times a year or in the rural backyard. Spend the other $600 on a pallet of ammo. When it's gone, you had fun, and know a lot more about what you really want to do with it.
What you don't want to do is blow $1200 on a tricked out semi military gun with expensive useless bling features. A collapsible stock and quad rail are all the fad, quick way to blow $250 and get: a stock that creaks and rattles, is usually stuck in one position anyway, and does zip to improve real accuracy. The A1 stock would do as well. Quad rail? KAC, the contractor for the quad on the M4, says a civilian shooter doesn't need 48" of rail. It's a government compromise to meet a bunch of diverse needs. If you can hold an 8" circle at 400m, you could switch to a free float, still don't need all the rails. A better barrel would be money well spent.
What's up is that the fanboys have their favorite brand for a good reason, they got quality. Beware of the FADboy recommendations, those guys post a photo titled " I haven't taken it to the range yet."
That means discussing features. The AR has better operator control layout than any other battle carbine. DI or Piston, whatever. As long as it's reliable, that's what counts. Modern well built DI guns work just fine, the Army has been using them for 45 years. Modern Piston adaptations to the AR have some problems. Designed from the ground up piston guns like the SCAR and ACR have less. SOCOM started the program and still dropped the SCAR -L. "It does the same thing as the M4, oh well, we get that for free already."
Moving on to features in a Home Defense and Plinking gun. First, there is no such thing as a Home Defense gun - unless you include all the millions of pistols, revolvers, and shotguns. Go to a home defense forum, those are the first line of firearms defense.
That really leaves plinking, a M4gery with handguards for $599 from CMMG, known as the Bargain Bin special, will do it all. Cheap ammo, looks pretty cool, shoots the range a couple of times a year or in the rural backyard. Spend the other $600 on a pallet of ammo. When it's gone, you had fun, and know a lot more about what you really want to do with it.
What you don't want to do is blow $1200 on a tricked out semi military gun with expensive useless bling features. A collapsible stock and quad rail are all the fad, quick way to blow $250 and get: a stock that creaks and rattles, is usually stuck in one position anyway, and does zip to improve real accuracy. The A1 stock would do as well. Quad rail? KAC, the contractor for the quad on the M4, says a civilian shooter doesn't need 48" of rail. It's a government compromise to meet a bunch of diverse needs. If you can hold an 8" circle at 400m, you could switch to a free float, still don't need all the rails. A better barrel would be money well spent.
What's up is that the fanboys have their favorite brand for a good reason, they got quality. Beware of the FADboy recommendations, those guys post a photo titled " I haven't taken it to the range yet."
Hedgemeister
Member
I posted a similar question awhile back. I was originally looking at piston rifles. I received a lot of good advice on this forum. I went with the DD because it came with all milspec parts plus a full auto BCG, Moe stock and vertical fore grip at under $1200. Reliability and the ability to handle 75 and 77 grain rounds were the most important factors, as this will be an LE duty rifle. Only 200 rounds so far but she is flawless and more accurate than me or my wife just yet.
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