Which first shotgun? Remingon 870 Express or Wingmaster or ...?

[ShootAndHunt]

Decided to buy my first shotgun after own several rifles (just cannot resist the shotgun's goodness). After some research, I prefer to buy a Remington 870 pump action shot-gun. (Still looking at the semi-autos, which is a better staring point for me???) I found that there are basically two models: Express and Wingmaster. From the price I think that the Wingmaster is better, but from the description I have no idea what is the difference between these two models Is the action or material on the Wingmaster is better than the Express, or the Wingmaster is better built? Please give me some clue!

I also cannot decide which shell capacity should I go: 2 3/4, 3, or 3 1/2? (too many questions . I will use this shotgun mainly for home defense, shooting fun and occasionly hunting. I heard that going for the highest because you could always use the lower in it. But is 3 1/2 really necessary for my purpose? Is it MUCH powerful and useful than a 3? How about the recoil? I am not recoil sensitive, but not a recoil nut too.

Just as I said, I am new to the shotgun and any suggestions (action type, model type, barrel length, ...) are extremely welcome. Thanks!

 

[sm]

First Welcome to THR.

Express is the Plain Jane Vanilla Shotgun. Wood is plain and not high gloss. Metal is a "parkerized" looking dull finish. Basically the metal doesn't have to finshed out or prepped as a fine blued had to be. They also make it in a synthetic stock version. Personally prefer wood, besides being an hard-headed old fart...I believe the density of wood lessens felt recoil. IMNSHO anyway.

Wingmaster has the better wood, which has been finished out -glossy. The Metal has been polished and blued.

Same function, reliability...finished out and pretty vs generic. I think the WMs have some pretty wood...I've owned my share...run thousands of rds thru WMs.

Lessee I just bought a NIB 870 Express for $199, The Wingmaster was marked $468 .

You can buy a LOT of ammo, get instruction and training for the price difference.

There is that pride of ownership...I appreciate and respect that too.

3" chambers are fine . Actually this is my first 3" chamber. I have always had the 2 3/4 " chambers, never felt undergunned or underpowered. Ran 25K rds a year, for many years using 2 3/4 " shells in competition. Felled a LOT of Ducks, Geese...you name it.

Honest, I doubt I will ever use 3" in this new one I bought. I will use 2 3/4"

3 1/2 " shells are good for large waterfowl -geese or for perhaps Turkey.

The 3 1/2" guns will typically be a bit heavier,and more cumbersome...especially for a new shotgunner.

Yes there is place for a 3 1/2" gun...IMO a 870 Express is hard to beat as a first gun. It will do everthing you ask of it. Learning on a pump is very good.

Nothing wrong with a semi, I used for years and still shoot a '74 SX1 [ Winchester Super X Model 1 not made anymore , machined steel gun] But as I said I shot 25k rds a year competiting...I did it to reduce fatigue and recoil. I shot O/U in the other gauges.

I personally feel the Remington 1100 is a better gun than the 11-87...again just my personal opinion, observations. My first 1100 cost me too much, I paid $169 for mine., brand spanking new with a IC fixed choke bbl..ran tens of thousands of rds thru it. In competition the 1100s held up.

I'd start with the pump, I'd learn the basics, get the gun to fit me and DO NOT change a thing [add doo dads and gadgets] One cannot buy skill and targets. Only through shooting and experience does this come.

Some day you may get a semi,or an O/U....always good to have a pump.

HTH

 

[kudu]

Well sm pretty well covered it, but my preferrence is a nice blue and pretty wood on a gun. I believe the wingmasters come with a 3 in chamber now standard, but I could be wrong. Don't see the need of 3.5" shells with the new Hevi-shot they have out now.

As sm said ,really no difference in guns between express and wingmaster in function, but looks and feel is what you have to decide.

 

[TrapperReady]

Personally, I'd look for a used 870 Wingmaster with 3" chambers. They're usually not too much more expensive than an Express... but they certainly look better. With their legendary durabilityand reliability, the vast majority of the used specimens are "just getting warmed up".

Also, if I'm going to be touching off much over a hot 2 3/4" shell, I'd prefer it come out of a gas-operated autoloader... but the ability to bump up to a 3" could be useful at times.

 

[sm]

kudu,

Oh I like the wood and blue. I "might ' have mentioned that a time or two...or three...

I "may" have added some "character" to some guns over the years...not scratches or dings mind you ..."character".

Gee - why didn't we buy more classics in blue and wood when we were younger?

I was young, dumb and broke...NO...20/20 hindsight I blew some monies ( looking back when I had some) on stuff I shouldn't have...sigh.

 

[Dave McCracken]

The gang pretty much nailed it. A coupla things...

Last year I shot between 5-6K of shells. 5 were 3", none were 3.5. The longer shells are NOT good for beginners.

Every shotgunner should have a good pumpgun, because no other shotgun has the cost effectiveness, reliability and versatility.

The only difference I see between the Express and WM in the field is the Expresses take a little longer to smooth up. Older WMs tend to have better triggers, but this is rectified easily either by a smith or usage.

Expresses come with just a Modified tube. If that's what you get add an IC or Skeet tube for close shots, and Full for longer ones. Pattern to make sure it's shooting where you're looking and that all tubes shoot to the same point. Some do not.

 

[Mulliga]

I have an 870 Express and it works fine. You're paying more money for a nicer gun cosmetically, but they shoot pretty much the same.

Keep in mind, this is a shotgun, not a rifle. Meant to be taken out in the rain and mud, beaten up, and generally used as a tool. If you get the pretty polished shotgun, you'll loathe doing this. You can beat the crap outta your Express for a decade, and then buy another one, all for less than the cost of one Wingmaster.

 

[ShootAndHunt]

Thanks guys for your great help! I decided to go with a Remington 870 Express since this will be my first shotgun and I will most probably beat it hard, also it is nice to pratice a different action since I have no a single pump action rifle (and never plan to have one), but for shotgun pump sounds interesting and reliable and convenient.

I prefer to go for the synthetic stock because it is somewhat weather resistant. But that barrel thing is really confusing. Shotguns usually have 26" even 28" barrels, which sounds pretty long for me comparing my rifles. Since I want to use it for home defense and short distance hunting, isn't the barrel too long? or Shotguns are just very different from rifles in this?

How do you guys clean your shotgun after shooting, any differneces from cleaning a rifle? For pump action what and how should I do to clean the actions?

 

[ShootAndHunt]

Whoops, and how is the recoil of a shotgun when compared to a ~8 pound rifle shooting .30-06 or .270?

 

[Dave McCracken]

My last 06 went about 8 1/2 lbs. Using a 165 gr load, I found the recoil less than a 7 lb 12 gauge 870 firing the 1 1/4 oz Rottweil Brenekke and more than firing a 1 1/8 oz target load.

Start with the lightest loads you can find. Something like 7/8 oz is ideal.

Many folks with a GP shotgun have two smoothbore barrels, one short and often with open sights for slugs and HD.The other one's longer, 26-30" and set up for tube chokes.

The floating threads at the top here have one on deep cleaning.

Also, punch 101 into the search engine with my name. The 101 threads are written to help new shotgunners.

HTH...

 

[sm]

ShootandHunt
[I may abbreviate as S&H in the future with no disrespect intended...oh my...anyone else remember S&H stamps?...getting old ain't I?...]

Ahem...Barrel length. I prefer the 28" , simply because when shooting skeet, 5 stand, sporting clays, doves, ducks...The "apparent lead" seems shorter, smoother swing and less likely for me to stop my swing.

For example I can hit a T ball with my neice's T ball bat ( which is short) but my swing is smoother , not as jerkey, if I use an adult sized bat to hit grounders to her. Follow me? I can still get the longer bbl mounted just as quick but smoother than as short one. Imagine the wand at a car wash is say 3 ft long, it is easier and smoother to "paint the soap of the vehicle" than if the wand was say a ft long...imagine the shot pattern as a spray of water from a car wash hose or garden hose...same principle.

Wood vs synthetic, yes it is a personal thing. keep in mind something. Gun fit is very important to shooter being able to hit what he looks at. A shotgun is POINTED not AIMED...transition to shotgun for rifle shooters is often difficult. IF and only IF the Stock needs to be altered in any way...Wood is easier to cut, adapt and such. I personally think the density of wood helps to dampen recoil. I really want new shooter to have a good experience in starting out. I have seen too many folks get turned of by a bad experience.

Imagine if the first rifle you shot was a .458 Win mag as a kid, some adult lets you fire that thing with no instruction, no warning and after you pick yourself off the ground he is laughing...you very well may never shoot a rifle again, become truned off of guns period. I and others here on THR are not gonna do that. We may agree to disagree on some stuff, main thing is you learn some good solid basics, safety is #1, and welcoming you to the world of shotguns doesn't mean you can't have fun learning. A positieve experience. We learn from you as well...don't forget that.

Okay I currently am using the 870 Express with a 28 " bbl. They do make a Combo that comes with a rifle sighted short bbl.

12 gauge:
- 28" (vent rib) 20" Imp cyl deer. #25571
-26" ( vent rib) 20" Imp cyl deer, #25578
[ Imp cyl deer or fully rifled ...see catalog for details]

I would stay with a smoothbore, if I did the combo. The allows one to have a longer bbl ( 26" or 28") for targets...skeet, trap, clays, hunting ...and allows one to have a shorter bbl ( 20" ) for deer, and home defence. Follow me?

At the top of this forum are a bunch of links (101 , Links to TFL ...etc) Included are Cleaning, buyuing a shotgun, patterning...Anytime you do a search look under Dave McCracken, for starters, also Al Thompson, Larry Correia, kudu, Trapper Ready, Smoke, PJR, dfarriswheel, HSMITH,Badger Arms...and I know I missed some folks - I apologize.

I also recommened Bob Brister's book : "Shotgunning: The Art and Science". [ ISBN 0-8329-1840-7
Though an older publication, this book is a MUST in my opinion. Deals with the gun fit, how to shoot, patterns, chokes, loads...you name it.

www.abebooks.com would be the best bet.

Cleaning, Well a pump will run dirty for sure. See the "Cleaning 101" thread, check the remington web site : www.Remington.com.

Recoil: I'm going to be very honest. Start with light loads to learn with. Gun fit is very important. If the gun fits the perceived recoil will be less. Use ear plugs and ear muffs ( you know this from rifles) will lessen the percieved recoil.

The light loads allows one to learn properly, ingrain the / teach the human computer - allows the natural eye -hand coordination to become an extension of shooter.

Sorry if I get carried away...I like to see folks get started on the right path. I prefer monies to go toward solid and dependable firearms and put to good use. One cannot buy skill and targets.

HTH

Steve

 

[ShootAndHunt]

Thanks SM and all other guys! Your opinions and suggestions are really very helpful for me and new shotgunners. Call me SH if you don't mind. S&H sometime makes people thinking about Shipping & Handling How do I hate this word nowdays when I buy something online and they charge me a lot extra via S&H terminology:banghead:

Thanks SM for your information about the combos, this looks really nice to me. I didn't notice it when I visit Remington's website or read their catalogs. The 28" (vent rib) 20" Imp cyl deer. or 26" ( vent rib) 20" Imp cyl deer sounds like a dream combination, and I could have two barrel length at one time I will try swing to see whether I prefer 28" or 26", but a 20" is definitely nice and handy when it comes to short range use. Just one question, could I shoot slug from either of the two barrels?

The next thing I will do is to go to the gun store and try one of the Remington 870 Express to see if it fits me since fitting is so important in shotgunning. Shooting a shotgun would be fun, but I will start buying the cleanning things again since my rifle cleanning accessories seems not suitable for shotguns. (I never shoot a rifle with calib larger than .40, now I go for 12 gauge )

It seems like that I need do some more reading about shotguns in THR. 101? good starting point! You know, at the very begining I thought it was really weird that a shotgun has only the front sight, Hmm, my rifle experience

 

[Black Majik]

My advice would be to take a look @ both the Wingmaster and the Express. Thats what I did when I was looking for my first pump shotgun.

Express - Still a nice shotgun, dont really like a parkerized finish in general, the wood was alrite, but I still liked the patterning on the forend.

Wingmaster - Beautiful blue finish, some light engraving on the receiver, glossy wood stocks, and an action smoother than any other shotgun I've ever felt. Jus' rack the forend on one and see for yourself

I walked out w. a Wingmaster over a Express. Its worth the extra money

 

[sm]

S&H,
You are very welcome.

Hey I believe in collecting the whole set!

Now I really appreciate fine wood and blue on a gun. I really do. I'm thinking in your case of First gun and the amount of monies spent, monies for gun fit, training, ammo, ammo, ammo, two bbls, and the like. There is nothing wrong with nice wood, if the extra monies is there - go for it.

To be honest, The Winchester Guns tend to fit me off the rack best, Ithaca is the next best. Yes I am tweaking the new 870 to fit me...the drop is low for me off the rack.

As Dave says, and many of us concur...any of the Big Four will work.

I believe in basic fundamentals, pump Shotguns, revolvers, bolt actions. Just the way I'm wired. I have no problems with semi's...hey I like 1911 styles, but then again I learned on revos, so IMO my learning curve / the ability to shoot was to MY advantage to learn the trigger control, sights ....etc. Learning to shoot rifles with a bolt taught me well, no biggie to transiton to a semi.

If one does NOT learn with a crutch - one is NOT dependent on a crutch.

For your easy acess...take a look at the Ithaca btw...drool...drool...

http://www.ithacagun.com/
http://www.winchester-guns.com/
http://www.mossberg.com/
http://www.remington.com

I'm currently drooling over the new Ithaca...I don't need it...I want it badly tho'.

 

[TrapperReady]

Steve - Boy do I ever remember S&H Green Stamps! Got my first bike with them... all obtained from the local A&P grocery store. I agree that Brister's book is a valuable reference. Mine still gets thumbed through whenever I'm bored (with two kids that's not very often), or when I'm pondering making some kind of change to my gun/shells/form/etc...

As far as nice guns and babying go... I will gleefully shoot anything I've got in any kind of conditions. However, if it gets wet, muddy or otherwise nasty, they get cleaned a little quicker and a little more thoroughly. As has been stated, a wood stock is easier to tweak, and I find that they just feel better to me, which is likely due to the weight and balance. Wood may not be totally weather-proof, but millions of shotguns with wood stocks have done just find in horrible conditions... as long as they are cleaned and given some TLC in a timely fashion. Remember that routine maintenance is easier than letting things go and then having a major problem.

AFAIC, nicks and scrapes just add character. In fact, after nearly 40 years of life, my knees, elbows, eyebrows and so on are pretty much chock-full of character. My shotguns are much the same... only some much older.

WRT recoil and a .30-06. As Dave said... target loads kick a bit less, slugs a bit more. I think a big difference is in HOW you shoot. Most of the time when we're shooting rifles, we're either doing so from a bench or some other static position. Shotguns are generally fired standing, and your body is far better-suited to absorbing recoil this way. It's why I can go through 250+ shotgun shells in a day and come away grinning, while over 50 rounds of .30-06 from the bench has me reaching for the Advil.

In any event... nice choice! Shoot it often and enjoy yourself!

 

[sm]

TR,
I bet the bike had a Bendix Coaster brake.

Can't find bikes made like that anymore...darn sure can't "backpeddle" to stop...these newfangled things ( bikes) well...I have plenty of 'character marks' on my body...some from bikes - even with the coaster brake I didn't stop "on a dime". Character marks from the newfangled ones...eeww...talk about hurt.

So yep my guns, even the ones with fine wood really don't have "scratches" ...like the owner they do have some "character" tho'.

I buy this stuff to be used. No harm in "look good while getting there" as we said in my racing days. But...no matter how good looking, TOOL has to work and the operator HAS to know how to operate said tool.

True in everything...

Hunting dogs are the exception...

 

[TrapperReady]

Steve - My hunting dog is a converted house pet (started hunting with him at age 8, just about 3 months ago). He's a sorta-goofy mutt, mostly lab. He doesn't quite point. He doesn't quite point. He'll retrieve some of the time.

BUT...

He finds me birds, listens most of the time and is a great companion. Anyone wants to poke fun at him better not say it too loud while I'm around.

 

[standingbear]

you can get the combo..which will have both the 20" rifle sighted(imp cylinder) slug barrel and the long vent rib barrel that accepts screw in chokes(factory includes a mod choke).I bought the magnum express(which has a magnum receiver for the 2and 3/4 or 3" shells)and a smoothbore 20"rifle sighted slug barrel in imp cylinder.I promptly replaced the sliding sight with the ones out now that have hi visability dots.the newer express models have a redesigned trigger housing and safty.its plastic now with a special key to lock/unlock the trigger.the older ones were made from metal of some sort with a simple push safty.I chose the smoothbore slug barrel over the rifled barrel for more utility in HD use and pellet pattern.some say 7and a half bird shot is great for HD as it wont tear up the walls behind your target but I prefer the #4 buckshot loads.both will stop a intruder at in house ranges.remington also makes a HD model with an 18.5 inch barrel and an extended magazine(6 or 7 shots total)....and a HD model without an extended magazine.the 870 parts are..I think..all interchangable.Its a good shotgun.slugs in either a rifled or smoothbore are ok.make sure the choke isnt restricted over a mod or improved cylinder...any more and your looking for serious trouble with a slug.

 

[riverdog]

Whether you get the Wingmaster or Express, look around for additional barrels. I currently have three Wingmasters and six barrels. My 870 Magnum always has a 20" rifle sight slug barrel -- and it's loaded with 00B. The other two are used for Trap and Skeet and they share the other barrels depending on what I feel like (one is an 870TB which has a factory high comb stock, the other is a standard 870 field gun for which I'm currently working on a custom Wenig stock).

My primary Trap barrel is a 30" Light Contour Rem Choke that seems to swing better for me when shooting Trap. Shooting Skeet I've usually used a 26" Rem Choke but now have a 26.5" Light Contour with Baker chokes and I'll probably be using that more.

The barrels effectively tune the 870 to the mission -- Trap, Skeet, Upland Quail, Turkey or home defense. An 870 Magnum can do all that and a barrel change takes less time that it took you to read this post -- seriously. Have fun, the 870 is a great gun.