Who makes high quality, non +P factory .38 spl ammo?

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P. Plainsman

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Am seriously thinking about finding me a Colt Diamondback. (Probably the result of spending too much time reading Chuck Hawks's site. ;))

As I understand it, these lovely guns are, in fact, rated for +P ammo. However, I'd want to treat mine very nicely. If it shoots loose, you can't exactly send it to Hartford for a new frame. On the other hand, just shooting light target wadcutters in it all the time would be lame.

Does anyone manufacture high quality hollowpoints or SWCs in plain old, non-+P, .38 special?

What are people firing in all those venerable ex-cop S&W .38s out there?

I keep a bunch of Federal American Eagle plain .38 spl FMJ around the house for practice. It ain't half bad, but I'd like the option of shooting something nicer in my hypothetical Diamondback.

What am I missing?

(Anyone with D-back experience should feel free to chip in about their guns, too.)
 
There appears to be only ONE vendor really trying hard to do a standard pressure 38spl defensive load that won't hurt an antique: Village Metalworks and the Safestop:

http://www.safestop.net/

There are two other "standard pressure" alternatives, the Cor-Bon DPX 100grain and the RCBD "superlight" critter if they're even around. But with low weights and being jacketed, they'll be hell on old forcing cones.

The best bet is to handload a 148grain lead hollow base full wadcutter backwards at 800fps from a 2". Sure, that gets you into the "eeeevil handload" alleged courtroom thing but it can be explained in that you were trying to brew up something that wouldn't break your elderly gun yet would still protect.
 
Thanks, Jim. I suspected the real answer was "handload." Unfortunately, I don't own a press.

I just noticed the highly similar "defensive plain .38 spl" thread from a few days back, to which you also responded. I always seem to notice these things after I post.

After I read your reply, one plinking possibility for TLC guns occurred to me: Black Hills makes a 158 gr lead conical nose "Cowboy Action" .38 spl. I have a box of the stuff in my dresser. It's easily available, mild, and not too pricey ($15 for 50). Kinda smoky. I guess the CAS folks like it that way.
 
Yes, CAS/SASS loads in 38spl are very easy on an older gun. 148grain target wadcutters (in plain lead, not the rare jacketed version) are also mellow on hold pieces and are usually cheaper unless you're buying in bulk.

The 148 Safestops were apparantly set up to go to the same point of aim as 148 target wadcutters, with the latter planned as practice/plinking.
 
I've got a box of Winchester 158 grain lswc; my dealer ordered them for me by mistake. These are standard pressure.
 
38Mike: Those aren't half shabby as defense loads, if you've decided that expansion isn't going to happen anyways...you'll get a decent "flat-nose splat effect". They should be loaded hotter than target wadcutters. Personally, I'd shoot 10 or 20 to see what they're like, keep the rest around as backups - they're a good bet for situations where heavy winter clothes could defeat hollowpoints.

The Safe-Stop nose profile is even better though, even if one petal doesn't "flake off" as it's supposed to (causing tumbling). And Village Metalworks is supposedly loading those as hot as they can without hitting +P pressures. The slug itself is lead with a thin coating of copper, not a true "jacketed" design, so it's almost as mild on the forcing cone as plain lead.
 
Gonna give [my] local guys a plug here.....

National Bullet Company in nearby [to me] Eastlake, Ohio is a commercial reloader. Have both the lead wadcutter in .38 Spl and "cowboy action" loads in 2 bullet weights.

www.NationalBullet.com is the web site.

Phone is 440-951-1854.

Right now, National Bullet is offering a special on Cowboy Action .38 Spl ammo.....$109 per 1,000 rounds for either the 125 or 158 Grain lead round-nose flat-point ammo.


(I am NOT affiliated with National Bullet, just a satisfied customer. Used their ammo in .38Spl, .357Mag, .45Colt, and .45ACP. Always goes BANG!)
 
TBeb: the problem with the Hornady is that since it uses the XTP slug, it needs all the speed it can get to have even a prayer of opening in a 2" barrel and it generally fails to do so in +P. It's iffy from a 4" and again, that's the +P version.

The XTP is simply the wrong projectile design for marginal-speed situations. It was intended originally as a hunting/critter defense load in magnums and such - it's a "delayed expansion" design that doesn't go all that fat. They started loading it for defense when the Facklerites got all crazy for max expansion after the Miami86 shootout.

For some reason the 380 version works pretty good but other than that, I wouldn't touch it until you get to 357 power levels. But in 357 or above, it's a GREAT "woods defense" or deer hunting round, very accurate, punches deep.

If you had...I dunno, a 6" barrel M&P, the standard pressure XTP MIGHT work OK. But as a 125grain jacketed, it'll be harsh on that forcing cone and I still wouldn't trust it to expand without personal testing.
 
Take a look at the Hornady line of Custom Handgun Ammunition. I think you will find what you are looking for. Their ammo is of excellent quality.
 
There appears to be only ONE vendor really trying hard to do a standard pressure 38spl defensive load that won't hurt an antique: Village Metalworks and the Safestop:
Click to expand...
Federal Hydra Shoks come in 110-gr high velocity hollow points for defense which are not +p. I have them in my model 10 at home.
 
Yup. And they can't hit more than 775fps from a 2" barrel unless there's a hurricane-force tailwind behind 'em :scrutiny:.

Seriously: a 110 standard pressure still oughta hit 825 - 850fps. Federal "wimped out". Again.

Seen this WAY too often. I have no faith in Federal whatsoever.
 
Relaoders make some excellent standard pressure ammo ;) I have some 158 gr SJHPs that are at max standard pressure and lope along at about 750 FPS from a 2" SP101. (Can't remember the exact velocity, have to check notes later).

Good sectional desnsity with a fast expanding lead front end with a jacket at the back to keep it from completely deforming if it hits something solid. Shouldn't be too bad of a defensive load.
 
Yup. And they can't hit more than 775fps from a 2" barrel unless there's a hurricane-force tailwind behind 'em .
Click to expand...
That's why my model 10 has a 4" barrel. Two hits CM with them will still get the job done. Sometimes we forget the police forces of this country for about 70 years packed Model 10's (and 19's) with 4" barrels using standard .38 FMJ ammo. May not stop a bear, but most humans will feel it.
 
Georgia Arms Ammo is Great!

You might call and talk to some folks over at Georgia Arms Ammo Company. They produce extremely high quality new and commercially reloaded ammo. Even their reloads must pass something like 18 quality checks. Look at the G38-series cartridges for .38-Special, especially the 125-gr JHP (and perhaps their 158-gr LSWC if using a snubbie).

http://www.georgia-arms.com/pistol.htm

nitesite
 
Ah. OK, from a 4" they *should* work at least adequately.

If the goal is low recoil, that will work.

IF the goal is to be extra-gentle on an antique or gun of marginal toughness (early aluminum frames, etc) then I'd still be concerned that 110 jacketed will hit the forcing cone rather hard.

The softer 148grain Safestops have the advantage there.
 
I bought a 2" M10 new last year - it was a 1/03 production. A call to S&W revealed it's +P rating. I elected to shoot mostly my own mild reloads in 148gr HBWC and 158gr LRN/LSWC, but I needed a HD round for it. A quick review of the old 'FBI load' revealed that it was still around - as the Remington R38S12. This 158gr LHPSWC +P .38 Special was designed for 2" snubby use. I have chrono-ed that round at 834fps SD= +/-5fps from the 2" 10 and increasing to 912fps SD= +/-16fps from my 3" 65. That 2" velocity is fast enough for the soft lead hollow point to work well - at least it did for the G-men.

I wouldn't hesitate to use that round for SD/HD in any older revolver that is +P rated. I would, however, do my plinking with the less expensive 158gr LRN/LSWC non-P rated rounds, as those R38S12's are $17-$21/50 when you can find them.

Stainz
 
P. Plainsman,

Is your post aimed at a non+P self defense load?

For plinking/informal target you don't need anything special. There's nothing wrong with American Eagle (or Winchester USA or UMC or CCI Blazers or quality reloads).
 
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Yeah, my original post was ambiguous. I guess I was looking for both.

Defensive load: I already have a defensive revolver, by a company that rhymes with "Luger," and I am, shall we say, unconcerned about the consequences of putting vast numbers of .38 +Ps through that particular piece. Yet I feel that every centerfire handgun I own ought to be able to "pay its way" in a pinch, through either hunting or defense. It's a matter of principle. Jim's reply was very helpful for this angle. I am also wondering if Remington UMC .38 HPs might do OK.

Plinking: Here, I was wondering if there were any esp. accurate target loads in non-+P .38 spl. On reflection, the answer to that one seems fairly clear: buy some 148 gr wadcutters, or Cowboy ammo.
 
For a defensive round, you might consider the Corbon non+P 110 gr. DPX. It tests very well in bare and clothed gelatin; penetrates 12-16" and expands to .50"-.60". It does about 1250 fps from a 4" barrel and about 1000 fps from a 2" barrel. Nobody knows if it'll be a good manstopper but it looks promising.
 
Both Georgia Arms and Atlanta Arms make very good ammo. Atlanta Arms has a (apparently) FMJ 148 wadcutter that looks like the berries for small game and not too shabby for SD/HD. One of these days I'll chrono the 148 FMJWCs and see how they run. They "feel" very warm, though not marked +P.
 
Good .38 Spl option for older guns

Hi everybody. I'm a newbie here but I saw this thread and wanted to let you know about an option I didn't see mentioned here. Many of you may already be familiar with them but Buffalo Bore makes a couple of nice rounds for older guns. I have a box each of the 20C and 20D non+P loads for home defense. They are specifically designed for use in guns like my M19 snubby. The 20C load is 158Gr. soft lead SWC-HC @850fps. The 20D is 150Gr. hard cast WC @ 850 fps. They are supposed to offer near .357 performance with reduced recoil and muzzle flash. I think penetration is something like 13-14 inches. They also have a 125Gr. Speer low vel. JHC @900 fps. You can find out more on their website: www.buffalobore.com . Only downside is they only come in boxes of 20. I haven't shot mine yet. If anyone out there has experience with these loads or other offerings from Buffalo Bore can you please let us know about your experience?
 
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