Who zeros their AR15s at 25 yards?

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I am only 27 and I have pretty good vision and have no idea how you would be able to see that target through any kind of red dot non-magnifying sight. The aiming point is only 3/8" in diameter. I printed off a few of them and will be taking them to my local range this weekend and see how I was able to put them to use though.

Damian
 
A 25y zero puts me way too high at 100y. Usually my 25y target will

I use a 50 yard zero. It's shoots flatter at the ranges I'm most likely to see. It easy enough to remember to hold over or adjust scope at 300+y
 
It is not only about getting your rifle to be zero or use maximum point blank range. What you should be aiming for (pun intended), is to have the clicks and markers on the sight to be accurate.
I can zero a rifle no problem, but will I have enough elevation to shoot accurately beyond 300 yards without holdover? Will the number of clickds add up/allow me to aim to the maximum range my rifle is able to shoot. You have got to setup your rifle to allow you to utilize it to its full potential. It goes beyond MPBR and zeroing the rifle to be on at 50 and 200 yards.
You have got to have the sights zeroed on the correct click for the yardage you are shooting at. Does this make sense?
 
Perfect sense. It's easy to see with a baliistics program.

With a 100 yard zero my SPR's scope runs out of "dial" early. With a 50 yard zero I run out around 900 yards.

A 25 yard zero would maximize my SPR's range, but for defensive carbines, that much of an arc at normal ranges is tough. I think I'm 9" high at 100y with a 25y zero.
 
Okay. So if you look at the IBZ way of zeroing an AR15 rifle. It allows you to keep your arc flat. You basically zero with your elevation using the front sight while you have adjusted your rear sight to be -3 clicks while you are on 8/3. This is your zero from 0 to 300 yards. Setting up your rifle this way will allow you to have maximum "aimed" shots. It also puts your click count, generally 1/2 MOA, to be accurate. If you do not use your front sight for elevation, and use IBZ when zeroing in at 50 yards, the numbers on your sights will be voided, and that is not a good thing.
Zero at 50 with the front sight, and the rear @ -3 when set on 8/3, and you will be about 1 1/2 to 2" high at 100 yards. If I recall correctly. I have been out of AR shooting for a little while, but I do have my WOA, pinned sights, 1/4 MOA, A2 upper being built as I type. I missed shooting my Colt so much I had to ask the boss (wife) to let me spend some of the savings on another AR15. On a side note. When I was younger, like 10 to 20 years old, all I wanted was an M14. I thought the .223 was sissy. Then I started shooting the AR15. My opinion changed 180*. I think the platform is awesome, and I have shot large game, it is legal here, with my AR15 when I did not have another rifle at that time, and the .223 is vicious to flesh and organs. Okay. Side note complete.

My emphasis is on having you be able to shoot flat from 0 to 300, and then when you get out beyond 300 you can actually use your numbers on your rear sight. 4 would be 400, and 5 would be 500 etc. If you choose not to set the elevation on your front sight, and adjust your rear sight by loosening the pin. You will not be able to accurately use the markers correctly. it will be guess work, and you will not shoot as accurately as you could.
 
8/3 minus 2 , front sight post flush, 25 yards is dead on at 200 yards when I shot in the Corps and I think we might know a couple of things about these rifles. At 200 yards any adjustments are made with the front sight post only!
 
So whatever happened to the "scientific" method of trial and error with observation and recording of results? The high sights of ar's makes for lots of advice...what your actual rifles does is for each shooter to figure out for themselves.
 
I'm another 50/200 type (Actually its more like 50/215 or so for my rifle with 55gr ammo). Good flat shooting zero from close range through 250 yards or so, approx 7 inches low at 300.

IMO with these zeros, you really need to use the far zero to be sure. 50 yards will get you close....but adjustments that don't show up at 50 often will at 200. Man size targets etc, or shooter not completely capable at longer range - doesn't really matter as much and the close zero will do as a compromise, but when you are in a rifle/3 gun match trying to hit 8" plates at 200-300 yards - only way to be 100% sure is use the far zero.

25yd zero = repeat zero at about 350 yards or so and 6 inches high at 100, 8 inches at 200 - not so flat for most realistic ranges.
 
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8/3 minus 2 , front sight post flush, 25 yards is dead on at 200 yards when I shot in the Corps and I think we might know a couple of things about these rifles. At 200 yards any adjustments are made with the front sight post only!

In a real gunfight none of your adjustments will be made with anything besides adjusting point of aim.

The 25 meter zero has been recognized as less than optimal by a lot of people, including Marines -- the problem is that none of the non-SOF services are serious enough about rifle marksmanship (including the USMC -- sorry) to spend the money revamping their entire inventory of 25 meter zero ranges. Since 25 meter zeroes are good enough, but not best, the powers that be have found various other things to spend limited resources on. The bad part is when people confuse a workable solution with a best solution, however. That kind of thinking will get the next generation of troops stuck with the same problem.
 
+1 for a 50 yard zero for 0-300 yd point blank (bullets stay within 2.5" of point of aim). I zeroed my Colt AR15A2 (20" bbl) with 55gr FMJ on Sunday and, in practice today, I put 40 out of 40 rds in the 9 ring or better on a 100 yd NRA HP target (21 10s and 8 Xs) from a seated position.

If in doubt, try a 50-yd zero...you won't be disappointed for practical accuracy.

FH
 
8/3 minus 2 , front sight post flush, 25 yards is dead on at 200 yards when I shot in the Corps and I think we might know a couple of things about these rifles. At 200 yards any adjustments are made with the front sight post only!

-USMC MP James

Hey, James, I respect the heck out of the Corps and their emphasis on each Marine a rifleman.. That said, you've got a couple of things wrong.

To begin, you're right that, for an AR15 with a 20" bbl and a 1:7" twist, 8/3 minus 2 front sight post base flush, windage set at mechanical zero is where you start when zeroing at 25 meters. That should put you somewhere on paper with your first group. After you fire the first group, you adjust elevation with the front sight and windage with the rear sight.

In the case of my AR (a 1989 vintage Colt AR15A2) and Win 55gr 5.56x45 FMJ), the first group needed 9 clicks up on the front and 4 clicks right on the rear for a 25-yard zero...and I then zero at 50 yds. Most rifles aren't right on from a mechanical zero. Indeed, I have 4 M1 Garands and each requires a different elevation set to get to a 200-yd zero...each using the same batch of HXP M2 Ball.

Now I realize that a USAF pilot should not be able to correct a Marine in matters of rifle shooting, but I have spent a bit of time with rifles since I started shooting 56 years ago...at the age of 8.

FH
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Life Member
2Lt, USAFR (ret) 1968-1971
 
The Army 25/300 zero was developed for 20" barreled rifles which shoot flatter than 14.5" M4s (or 16" civilian carbines). The 50 yd/200m zero is superior for 14.5-16" carbines, only problem for the Army is all our zero ranges are 25m. The expedient solution is we are zeroing low on the 25m targets which roughly simulates the 50 yd zero. Not too many soldiers truly understand the ballistic path though. I do, so I always held at neck level on the 300m targets with my M4, center mass for the rest with a low 25m zero.

My personal AR is zero'd @ 50 yds.
 
If your using a full AR-15, the 20 inch barrel, you zero the rifle at 25 yards using 1 click forward of 8/3's. We call this 8/3's plus one. The notch will be canted forward by one. After zeroing it at 25 yards, you place the 8/3's flush with the rifle, and now you can engage targets out to 300 meters. This is how we do it in the army.

For M4s or AR-15s with 16inch barrels, leave the 8/3's alone, or flush. You don't change it for 25 yards or 300 meters. Once zeroed at 25, you're all set to go, fairly simple.
 
I zero at 25m (which is 82 feet, or about 27 yards). I use the small aperture. If it's a fixed handle, I put the BDC dial on the 8/3 setting. If it's a removable carry handle, I put the dial on the "z," which is just above the 6/3 setting, and then once it's zeroed, I put it back to the 6/3 setting.

Either way, this gives you a 300m zero with the small aperture, which will give you a hit on a man-sized target from point blank out to 350m. It works especially well with a 6 o'clock hold, since center of target is more MOA from the bottom edge of the target on closer targets than it is on farther targets, which has the effect of causing you to hold low at the ranges where your rifle hits high, and hold high where your rifle tends to hit low. Pretty neat. I zero on about a 7 MOA target for this reason.

This method is also how you calibrate your BDC dial. If you do it like I said, it should be on. It is best to actually confirm your zero at 300m, too.

Flip to the large aperture for a 200m zero. This works best at night, when you can't normally see well enough to shoot targets past 200m anyway (which is why it is designed that way). Also, if you're wearing a gas mask or something, the large aperture is easier.

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. A 25m zero is most certainly not the same as a 100m zero on this rifle, unless you're shooting .22 LR maybe. FYI, the come-ups in MOA for military ball 5.56, from 100-200 is 2 MOA, from 200-300 is 2 MOA, from 300-400 is 3 MOA, and from 400-500 is 4 MOA.
 
"8/3 minus 2 , front sight post flush, 25 yards is dead on at 200 yards when I shot in the Corps and I think we might know a couple of things about these rifles. At 200 yards any adjustments are made with the front sight post only!"


I think you mean 36 yards, not 25 yards. On Bravo Range up at Edson range, the zero was done at 36 yds. When I had to start shooting at Stone Bay on the east coast, the zero was done at 200yds.
 
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I adjust until I'm two inches high at 100 yards and I then call it quits. That's worked for some sixty years on the majority of all guns and cartridges with which I've played. :) Close enough for jackrabbits, coyotes, deer and prairie dogs.
 
Rifles are individuals. My 2002-ish Colt AR15A2 Govt Carbine shot over 8" high at 100 yards if zeroed at 25 yards. This was with a major PD's SWAT trainers guiding me through the sight-in, adjusting my sights as I shot. They told me to write it down, and tape the corrections at various ranges to my stock.

Of course, after this four-day class was finished, I took the advice of a mentor, who had promoted out of that same SWAT team, and zeroed at 50 yards.
 
Yes Yes Yes, my M16 was zero'ed at 25 yds as I was told by the range captain at Camp Geiger in North Carolina. Once zero'ed, shot 5 standing to 100 yds, shot 10 sitting to 300 yds. Both was with short range rear-sight apprature. Then shot 10 prown to 500 yds using the long range flip-up rear-sight. Shot expert with a score of 243 on qualification day.

Thus, I'm pretty sure that 25 yd is the most expedient range to zero a M16.
However; the dope on the rifle changed all day every day to compensate for windage.
 
When I said all adjustments at 25- 200 should be made on the front sight post I meant elevation changes. Every rifle is different but doing it this way makes things alot easiler. The Marine Corps needs to do things on a buget. Every shot had to count. When I was a Primary Markmenship Instructor at Camp Hanson my unit was in charge of requalling 2000 Marines.{The hardest thing in the world is trying to get a fresh Staff Sgt to do anything because they know it all} We started everyone of them at 8/3 minus 2 front sight flush rear sight centered. We had to get them on paper with the 1st shot then they could call and plot any changes from there. From the 1st shot to the last shot on Quall day we never let them clean the bore because it would change their dope. I never maxed the KD course like my best friend Sgt Poster did but I shot several 247's and 393's with my M9. I even went to Quantico to try out for the rifle and pistol team. Almost made it with the pistol but I scored a zero because of a perfect keyhole and it was only scored a 385. Damn it still piss's me off today. I promise if you try it the way I stated you will be damn close.
 
I always zeroed at 50 with the 200 yard sight. On the 5.56 50 and 200 are about the same, well close enough for combat shooting.

25 is nice because its fast, when I shoot AQT's that's what I put them at.


Fun fact my 1911 Swiss rifle is zeroed for 300 meters, and well the sights don't adjust for less than that either. They were trained to shoot for the belt buckle and since most combat is closer its going to hit high. Interesting philosophy. Drove me nuts first time I shot it until I figured it out.
 
Fun fact my 1911 Swiss rifle is zeroed for 300 meters, and well the sights don't adjust for less than that either. They were trained to shoot for the belt buckle and since most combat is closer its going to hit high. Interesting philosophy. Drove me nuts first time I shot it until I figured it out.

That's exactly what I was talking about in my earlier post, when I suggested using a 6 o'clock hold with your 300m zero at all ranges from point blank to 350. If you always aim for the bottom edge of the target, this will compensate for your trajectory. It works for targets that are both closer and farther away than 300m. It has to do with how many minutes of angle the center of the target is from the bottom edge of the target at various ranges.

USMC James knows what he's talking about... when you are zeroing a rifle for the first time, you always start with the front post even with the FSB and the windage centered. You set your rear elevation drum for the correct setting for the range you're using, and then make your elevation adjustments at the front sight, so your elevation drum will be correct.

I have been told that the Marines are trained not to use the small aperture. They do like USMC James said and install their rear sight drums so that they will go 2 clicks below the 300m setting (which is usually where it bottoms out, from the factory), and just use the small aperture for everything. But FYI, the large aperture is 2 MOA lower than the small one, which is how far the bullet drops from 200 to 300m. It is designed to take you from a 300m zero to a 200m zero. However, 2 MOA is also how far the bullet drops from 100 to 200m, so if you did it the USMC way, and you were 2 MOA below your 300m setting with the small aperture, you ought to have a 100m zero if you flipped to the large aperture.

Now all of this goes for a rifle with standard rifle-length sight radius and a 20" barrel. When you go to the carbine-length sight radius, the clicks on the elevation drum are more than 1 MOA because of the shorter sight radius. However, the lower muzzle velocity of the carbine-length barrels generally makes up for the fact that you're adjusting in larger units, at least for the ranges they are intended for, so the BDC and dual apertures work pretty much the same as they do on the standard length rifles.

It's pretty neat how all this stuff works. These sights were designed by some pretty smart dudes... not as smart as John C. Garand, who designed the sights for the M-1 and M-14, but I digress!
 
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