Who's in charge of hunter ethics?

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The ethics of hunting? I don't think they're subject to the judgement of any one individual. My understanding is that there is a set of ideas, discussed and argued about by multitudes of hunters over numerous decades. The ethics of hunting represent a consensus, a distillation of a helluva lot of thought.

They include: "Fair chase", in that the animal has some chance of evasion or escape. "Clean kill", in that suffering is minimized as much as feasible.

In general, hunters who strive to be ethical in the hunt generally obey game laws because they understand that a high percentage of these laws have reason behind them. (Nothing is perfect.)

We have seasons in order that breeding can happen and that rearing of new generations can occur. It's a "for the good of the species" thing; we're not particularly concerned with the fate of any one individual animal. Same sort of thing for shooting hours and bag limits. Without a surplus of a species, we can't hunt. But all that's law, not ethics.

We call it "sport hunting" because we know that we can buy meat at the local A&Poo Feed Store or the Hoggly Woggly. We don't have to hunt in order to survive. Borrowing from athletics, we can apply the term "good sport" to our ethics package.

IMO, all these other items of argument are mostly picking flypoop out of pepper, brought out in various weak-logic fashion to support some preconceived notion pro or con on the issue of hunting itsownself. Cock fighting, dog fighting, slaughter houses, all that sort of thing? Nothing to do with the ethics or legalities of hunting in today's world. Irrelevant, IMO.

Why do I hunt? Well, after some 65+ years at it, I just sorta got into the habit of it, and you know how old folks' habits are really hard to break. :D:D:D

Suggested reading: First, Ruark's "The Old Man and the Boy". Next, Ortega y Gasset's "On Hunting". Then, most anything about hunting from Jeff Cooper. Sure, there's a lot more, but those speak to ethics better than others. FWIW, in my mind, Cooper's writings about honor and ethics are far more important than anything he's written about firearms...

Art
 
I do not consider taking game in a HF area hunting, as much as I do getting food, unless its a huge areas, or any over a few hundred acres. I will therefore not participate in shooting animals like that and calling it hunting, but will not make you stop. I always liked the idea of it just being me and the animal, except I have a gun and a better brain, so that is the way I will hunt.

As far as feeders are concerned, I wouldn't care if they were on the property I was on, because it would just make things easier, but unless its the last day and I have nothing, I would probably not shoot animals at one, just because I like the actual hunt.

But by all means, hunt as you wish, just don't force me to do the same. Anyway good hunting to everyone.
 
What does where it's done have to do with whether or not it's ethical? Do you think the animals in the Philippines feel less pain than animals in the U.S.? What exactly is the basis for your sense of ethics on the issue?
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Different cultures have different morays. I'm not going to sit here and preach my morality and ethics upon someone from another culture so different from my own. Seems to me, that's what gets us in a lot of trouble around the world.

Here's another question, is bull fighting ethical or legal? In Spain and Mexico it is, their cultures, their morays.
 
So then, if there were no law against torturing an animal to death you'd be A-OK with it?
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That type of activity is illegal where I hunt. It's illegal because sportsmen have acted to make it illegal.

You want to see animals being "tortured to death", visit your local slaughterhouse.

I haven't seen anybody here advocating cruelty to animals, just expressing the desire not to be judged by others. Here in IL, it's illegal to hunt deer over bait or to even provide food to deer. Because of this, I don't hunt over bait. If I went to TX, or anywhere else it's legal, I would probably hunt over a feeder. Is this unethical?

Ethics is a personal matter. As long as the individual is satisfied (and legal), that's it. It's easy to be tempted at times, I've been. Shot a small buck, minutes later a much bigger buck come along. I could have shot the bigger buck, dumped the little buck in a ditch and nobody would have known. I'll admit, I thought about it. The big buck milling around for several minutes made it tougher. In the end, I didn't shoot. I wasn't scared of being caught, it just wasn't right to me. I tagged my little buck and dragged him out with a clear conscious.

To sum it up, ethics is what you do when nobody is watching.
 
So then, if there were no law against torturing an animal to death you'd be A-OK with it?

That type of activity is illegal where I hunt. It's illegal because sportsmen have acted to make it illegal.

You want to see animals being "tortured to death", visit your local slaughterhouse.
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Perhaps you should take just a second to read what you're responding to. I posed a hypothetical that asked, if there was no law against it, would you be OK with it. You either didn't catch that, or are copping out on the question with the "but it's illegal".

If it was legal, would it be OK? That's what the question of ethics is all about, not this "if it's legal it's alright" nonsense.

I haven't seen anybody here advocating cruelty to animals
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I didn't say anyone was. I asked you if it was ethically OK, not whether or not it was legal. What's so difficult about that to understand?
 
I have a friend who believes it is unethical to use a Mosin carbine for hunting.

His words, as best I can reproduce them, "Those things are great for messing around and shooting at rocks in the desert. But you OWE the animals you're hunting the accuracy of a good gun, not one of those things. Field accuracy is hard enough, and you owe the animal equipment that will maximize your chances at a humane, quick kill."

That might rile the Mosin-heads, who insist their gun shoots MOA, but in principle, I have to say I agree.

(So obviously, no I don't think animal cruelty is okay, even if legal.)
 
Well, at least you understand what "ethics" actually means. Now, exactly what is/isn't sufficient accuracy to qualify as ethical means is, of course, subjective and open to debate. But the doctrine that a "clean kill" should be strived for, and that a negligent failure to do so is unethical, is generally agreed upon.
 
Now, exactly what is/isn't sufficient accuracy to qualify as ethical means is, of course, subjective and open to debate.
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Of course. That's why I said, "In principle."

It's also situational. I think that, before taking a 450-yard shot, you'd better have some idea about how to hit something at that range, and a rifle capable of the required accuracy.

On the other hand, there are places where deer hunters can seldom see more than 50 yards through the trees. Few functional guns are so inaccurate as to be unethical.

WRT other "ethics", they, too can be situational.

In a place with a high deer population, where DFG wants to cut the population, and feeders are legal, it's not unethical to use a feeder. On the other hand, in a place with a sparse population of deer, it can be unethical to use something like a feeder at all. Ethics are not just about humane kills, of course. They're also about other hunters and a fair share of the game.

Like Art says, most F&G laws are there for a reason. Following the law is usually sufficient when it comes to other hunters and a fair share of the game.

It's the other stuff that requires a true sense of ethics.
 
It's the other stuff that requires a true sense of ethics.
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I would say that we appear to be in complete agreement on this issue (at least, so far.)

Hunting ethics, folks, not morals and...
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Ethics are, by definition, a system of moral principles. Saying "Ethics, not morals" is a bit like saying, "Societies, not people." Of course, if you were grouping "morals and bullfights"...then, never mind ;)
 
I suppose you can sum it up like this.

If you feel like doing something, but the little Larry inside you says, "That ain't right. Lord I apologize, and be with the starving pygmies down there in New Guinea. Amen." then it's probably unethical.

That's kinda how morals and ethics interrelate, but maybe not totally.
 
My whole premise is, nobody sat down and wrote a set of rules for hunter ethics. It is not written in stone that hunting with dogs, using feeders and stands, hunting food plots, or "hunting" inside high fences is immoral. Where legal, I have no problem with people doing it whether I'd want to or not. I ain't pushing my ethics and morality upon them and I expect the same, regardless of their ignorance of my social morays and the laws of Texas and their own arrogance, from others. It's bad enough we, as hunters, have to deal with the likes of PETA telling us we are unethical or immoral, I don't need other HUNTERS telling me that.

Heck, some panzy states don't even hunt DOVES! Don't shoot the cute little song birds, it's immoral! :cuss::banghead::rolleyes: They've given in to PETA and I don't intend to.
 
I have to wonder why you even bothered raising this issue for discussion. You've been asked multiple questions regarding your fundamental position on what ethics even are, and you've completely evaded each and every one. It seems that all you really want to do is to publicly proclaim, "I don't want nobody tellin' me what to do!", and want absolutely nothing at all to do with the actual question of hunting ethics.
 
I'm really curious to hear some answers to the very simple questions that continue to be ducked:

1) If it were legal in your area, would you have any problem with someone torturing animals to death?

2) Assuming there was no law prohibiting it, would you be OK with your neighbor torturing his child[ren]?
 
I have to wonder why you even bothered raising this issue for discussion. You've been asked multiple questions regarding your fundamental position on what ethics even are, and you've completely evaded each and every one. It seems that all you really want to do is to publicly proclaim, "I don't want nobody tellin' me what to do!", and want absolutely nothing at all to do with the actual question of hunting ethics.
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Hey, I wrote the thread and now you're trying to tell me, not only how to hunt, but what I meant to say?????:rolleyes:

Yeah, I don't hunt deer with less than a .357 magnum, I shoot no farther than 350 yards with my most accurate MOA rifles, I have a range finder if I'm where I might get a shot, I know my ballistics for my guns, and I put it where it counts. I follow ALL game laws, even those I think STUPID like steel shot laws. I retired my old favorite side by side because of steel shot laws (but hey, it was a good excuse to buy another gun). I don't shoot over my limit, I have ALL the require stamps and licenses (about 75 bucks a year not including my APH permit), and I consider myself an ethical hunter DESPITE the fact that I hunt deer and hog mostly from a tripod stand over a feeder on my own 10+ acres of heaven. I don't trespass, never hunted off the road, yadda, yadda, yadda. IOW, I follow the letter of the hunting laws. I did not realized I was an unethical hunter until I started chatting on this board and was told that I was because I use a feeder.:rolleyes: Who the heck says feeders are unethical? Where is this written in the stone tablet of ethics?

THAT'S why I started this thread, comprende ahora??? And what the heck has hunter ethics got to do with child abuse. My wife is a retired CPS case worker. I should let her school you on that one.
 
Hey, I wrote the thread and now you're trying to tell me, not only how to hunt...
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At no point did I try to tell you how to hunt. If you can't be intellectually courageous, could you at least try to be intellectually honest?

but what I meant to say?????
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Nor did I try to tell you what you meant to say. I speculated on your purpose for bringing up "ethics" (or at least, thinking you were bringing up ethics...even though you avoided discussing actual ethics like the plague). That's what "It seems..." means. I'm speculating based on what you've written here.

THAT'S why I started this thread, comprende ahora???
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Comprende mucho. In fact, you've pretty much validated my speculation. You're not the least bit interested in an actual discussion of "ethics" (in fact, you still have yet to demonstrate an understanding of the word.) You just want to say, "Don't tell me what to do."
 
Just like the US House of Representatives, everyone has his/her own sense of ethics. Personally, i will not shoot a deer near a feeder or in a food plot during muzzleloader or center fire season. i will shoot a deer in a food plot during bow season, but will not shoot one near a feeder.

Hogs are another matter. The places that i hunt are over run by hogs. i will shoot a hog under a feeder or in a food plot. I use feeders on our own places in order to keep the deer on those places. When rifles start to crack they run for our places and often stay there. Our land is posted and i allow just one person outside my family to hunt them. i have never killed a deer on one 80 acre place we have.

If other folks want to hunt high or low fence game ranches that is fine with me.
 
i will shoot a deer in a food plot during bow season, but will not shoot one near a feeder.
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Why? And I'm not asking for a "because I don't think it's sporting" answer. We're not talking about that. I'd like to know why you consider shooting an animal that's near a feeder to be immoral (the basis for "ethics", personal or otherwise.)
 
Comprende mucho. In fact, you've pretty much validated my speculation. You're not the least bit interested in an actual discussion of "ethics" (in fact, you still have yet to demonstrate an understanding of the word.) You just want to say, "Don't tell me what to do."
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Here's my entire first post. Where in it do I not explain the point of the thread clear enough for you???? You're the one that went off into definitions of "ethics". I'm plainly stating in this post that your ethics might not be my ethics and who says anything in Wash/Oregon has to be the same as Texas? Different regions have different methods of hunting and different hunter ethics. Maybe some things, like respecting the land and the land owner, abiding my limits, and such, are common, but here in Texas, feeders are the way it's most commonly done.

I'm still trying to figure out Louisiana, though. :D


I think canned hunts behind high fences isn't hunting many times. Now, that said, is it any more unethical than shooting a pig in a slaughter house with a stun gun? I just posted a motorized decoy vid. I'm waiting for someone to post that it's unethical....while regular decoys aren't? from the north west, mostly, you know, the geek states that are full of know it alls, claim feeder watching is unethical. Well, feeder watching is a way of life in Texas and totally legal for whitetail and hogs and lots of turkey are taken at the feeder.

Just who is in charge of telling us what is ethical and what isn't and where the fine line is? I'm getting a little tired when people from yankeeland call me a sorry sack of poop for using a feeder on my place. Hey, I ain't doin' anything my neighbors ain't doin'. Like I said, it's a way of life here. And, where's the difference in a food plot and a feeder?

See, I figure since I ain't doin' anything illegal, if you don't like it, go play with yourself. Now, you're entitled to your opinion and you don't have to do it when and if you ever hunt here, but hey, that's your choice. There is a whole industry grown up around feeders and timers. They sell 'em like hot cakes at bass pro and academy and such along with stands of all kinds that some folks find offensive. There's MILLIONS of dollars in sales of these things and some of that contributes to pitman/robertson act funds. Why is it that feeders and stands aren't a GOOD thing?
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BTW, a friend brought me a picture from east Texas once, would have made a GREAT picture for Foxworthy to use on one of his shows. It was a trailer house on about 2 acres, had a deer stand in the back yard and a feeder by the back fence. ROFLMAO! Now, THAT'S a redneck if ever I heard. Oh, there was a pickup on blocks, too, was classic.:D
 
Here's my entire first post. Where in it do I not explain the point of the thread clear enough for you???? You're the one that went off into definitions of "ethics".
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"Ethics" was what you claimed was at issue. Was it, or wasn't it?

Still ducking the simple questions, I see. If you can't answer them, just say so. The bobbing-and-weaving isn't accomplishing anything other than making you appear to be completely disingenuous.
 
Man, you Texans are an argumentative bunch.

I'd love to sit around a campfire and just listen to y'all go on.:D
 
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