Why are factory 38 Special wadcutters so expensive?

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Shrinkmd

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I was looking at AIM surplus, and they had S&B wadcutters for $15 per box.

I know it is probably just supply/demand, but isn't it a lighter lead bullet with 2.8 gr of Bullseye powder in it? These are among the cheaper things to reload, especially since 38 special cases allegedly last forever when used for this load.

Is there anyone out there who likes shooting 38 special wadcutters and doesn't reload? I know that .22lr ammo is different, and you can't handload some CCI Standard Velocity or Green Tag on your own.

I will have an extra smile on my face when I fill up my next batch of cases.

BTW, what is everyone's favorite charge of Bullseye for the 148 gr WCBB?
 
I can remember buying 38 WCs around 1975, they were $8 plus brass for reloads at the local police supply.

I'm using W231 and Titegroup behind the wadcutter. It's been a long time since I used any Bullseye.
 
BTW, what is everyone's favorite charge of Bullseye for the 148 gr WCBB?

3.5 grs of B'eye with a plain base wadcutter gives you about 825 fps in a 2" J frame as a std pressure SD load.

I've seen factory wadcutters in stores and on line going for $30 a box!!!!
 
BTW, what is everyone's favorite charge of Bullseye for the 148 gr WCBB?
I use a DEWC and charge 3.2gr W231/HP-38. It's a very accurate and clean load.
When I want just a little more velocity I charge 3.5gr W231 under the same bullet.
 
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Your assumtion is correct. It's supply and demand, plus the fact there isn't as much bullseye competion shooting these days. Add the fact that the Colt Gold Cup in 38 special and the S&W Model 52 Master are no longer made and both functioned with 38 Special LWC bullets only. One other consideration is that 148 gr HBWC bullets are extremly difficult to cast and the few manufacturers that do make them swage their bullets.
 
I would like to understand why any .38 Special is more expensive than 9mm. Either I'm looking at it backwards (i.e., powder cost, brass cost, primer cost is about the same between the two rounds), or I'm missing the point (because of 9mm's popularity, it's made in higher quantity, thus lowering the manufacturing cost, allowing it to be sold 30%-50% less than .38).

I took my bro-in-law shooting over Christmas. The range didn't allow reloads, so I picked up ammo at Dicks in austin. 9mm was $14/50, but .38s (Blazer aluminum 130gr) were almost $20. Remington was $22 or 23/50.

Q
 
One other consideration is that 148 gr HBWC bullets are extremly difficult to cast

I didn't know that. My bullet supplier makes "hard cast" with a BHN of 18

These run $54/k Is there any difference in accuracy between these bullets and a more traditional, soft lead, HBWC design?
 

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I cast the Lee 148WC from pure lead. It casts like a dream. Loaded over 2.7gr Bullseye it shoots great. With free lead they cost me 45.00/1000. I get a shock every time I see factory prices.:fire: I'd have to give up shooting if I had to pay retail. :cuss:
 
Cost is a matter of demand and volume. Back in the day when all the police departments carried .38 Specials and used wadcutters for training and practice the ammo factories loaded wadcutters by the millions of rounds. Before about 1980 police departments didn't require use of full duty ammo for qualification so .38 wadcutters were widely used for practice, qualification and NRA police revolver competition. Before about 1980 the .38 Special was also commonly used during the center-fire stages of conventional NRA style bullseye shooting, by both cilvilikans and the military teams at Camp Perry, so there was high demand for quality ammo produced in large volume.

The military marksmanship units used to sample, test and then buy the very best lots by the truckload. Civilian customers got the leftovers. I can remember in the 1970s testing all popular brqands of factory wadcutters off a machine rest in an indoor tunnel. It was no trouble to select lots which would shoot 10-shots groups averaging an inch and a half at 50 yards. The best stuff Remington-Bridgeport used to make would hover close to an inch from a heavy test action and return-to-battery rest. Today I use a single-shot target rifle with Unertl scope to test .38 ammo. Years ago it was impossible to handload wadcutter which was as good as the best factory stuff. Today it is hard to find factory wadcutters that average under 2 inches. I can do that well with carefully cast Saeco double-enders assembled on a Dillon RL550B. Alot of factory wadcutter you buy today won't do better than 3 inches, which is no better than you expect with ordinary +P service ammo.

This is because today very few people buy wadcutters for serious match work anymore. Conventional bullseye and PPC revolver sports don't have the large following they once did. Most wadcutter ammo sold today is used for basic training in CCW classes and sold to people who want to practice with a lower recoil load in their .38 snubbie at 7 yards, so the only requirement is for the ammo to go BANG!

Because factories don't load wadcutter constantly, but only to fill orders as needed, with reduced demand, and no pressure from customers for quality ammo, in smaller volume it costs more and it isn't as good as the old stuff you bought 25 or more years ago.
 
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The classic .38 WC target load is 2.7 Bullseye. I've been shooting it for years in my Clark longslide with perfect function and fine accuracy. As to HBWC, they are fine if you can get good swaged ones at a fair price. As noted above, casting a HB pistol bullet isn't worth the bother. A double-end .38 WC is easy to cast and load and nicely accurate in a good target pistol. That's about all I use.
 
Ed Harris pretty much nailed it. Back when I was shooting on the department PPC pistol team in the mid to late 1970's, we burned through thousands and thousands of rounds of .38 Wadcutter, all with HBWC bullets. You could get it most anywhere at a reasonable price, if you needed factory ammunition. We loaded our own for practice and the 7, 15 and 25 yard lines. We reserved the Remington HBWC factory ammunition for the 50 yard line, since it was the most accurate on the market at that time.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
Of the available soft swaged HBWC bullets available today Remingtons are the best hands down. They fully equal the fine old Winchester bullets you used to be able to get.

With current Alliant Bullseye it takes 3.0-3.2 grs. to reach the same velocity you would expect to get with factory wadcutter loads. But accuracy deteriorates with the Hornady, Speer or Precision-Delta HBWC bullets if you try to load over 2.8 grs. for 720+/- 30 f.p.s.

The former Hercules Bullseye powder took only 2.7-2.8 grains to develop 750 +/- 30 f.p.s. from a 6-inch PPC gun with a flush-seated 148-gr. bullet, but that gets you only about 700-720 f.p.s. with current product which may not be enough to stabilize the bullet in 18-3/4 inch twist S&Ws or to reliably function the S&W Model 52 or Colt Gold Cup with the standard factory recoil spring.

With TiteGroup there is some lot-to-lot variation, so start at 2.4 grs. and adjust as needed for reliable function and velocity 750+/- 30 f.p.s. for the blockback-operated match pistols. The Remington bullets will stand up to 3.5 grs. of Alliant Bullseye for 850 +/- 30 f.p.s. without the skirt opening up or hurting accuracy if the revolver forcing cone is properly cut. This load can also be used in the Colt Gold Cup as a good field load if you use the full-power 16 pound .38 Super recoil spring.

I use the Saeco #348 double-end, bevel-base wadcutter cast 10-11 BHN using indoor range backstop scrap. As-cast bullet diameter is .360", the same as factory Remington 148-grain HBWCs. I load these as-cast and unsized, lubricating with Rooster jacket full strength in a proportion of 1/3 cup to 1000 bullets, or alternately using a diluted solution of Lee Liquid Alox cut 50-50 with mineral spirits in the same ratio. Both lubes work just as well for target loads, but if you change lubes you must thoroughly clean and dry the barrel and chambers of the cylinder and recondition the bore by wiping with a patch lightly wet with lube, letting it dry, and then wiping with two dry patches.

Cast double-end wadcutters require heavier charges to shoot well than soft-swaged hollow base types. I load 3.5 grains of Alliant Bullseye with Remington 1-1/2 primers for double-end wad-cutters and 3.1-3.2 grs. with factory Remington HBWC bullets. I load the Remington bullet flush seated similar to factory loads and the Saeco #348 double-end bullets with their sprue-cut forward, to the crimp groove with the beveled base band exposed. I taper crimp using the Lee Factory Crimp Die applying no more crimp than is necessary to completely remove any mouth flare. Excessive crimp damages the bullets and enlarges groups.

For serious target work I use only cases which were originally used for loading factory wadcutter ammunition. Wad-cutter brass has thinner walls with a long cylindrical section which extends all the way to the seated base of the wadcutter bullet, whereas +P and other cases made for JHP service loads are thicker walled and have a faster internal taper intended to increase bullet pull to improve ballistic uniformity with the slower powders used for factory loading jacketed service loads.

If your target revolver or match auto pistol has tight chambers, cases expand very little so that .360 diameter bullets will hold friction tight in fired brass until the shell head on the loading machine rotates to the final station in which rounds should be full-length profiled and taper-crimped only enough to remove all mouth flare. Unless your gun has sloppy service chambers, it will be necessary to resize the brass to prevent bullets from dropping down against the powder under vibration of the loading machine, which causes DANGEROUS variations in seating depth!

By loading the "fat" factory Remington bullets or as-cast bullets in unsized brass, and profile taper-crimping in this manner, case life is improved, bullet deformation is reduced and bullet pull is more uniform, because the brass work hardens and springs back much less when it is worked only once in profile crimping, versus when being cold worked three times in the usual method of full length resizing, expanding, seating and crimping.

Standard .38 Special loading dies work brass excessively because their dimensions are intended to resize cases tightly enough to provide a tight bullet fit with jacketed bullets. If you must load new brass or that which has been previously resized use a .38 S&W Cowboy Expander plug of .358" to reduce bullet base deformation during seating.

My loading method is to separately de-cap brass, tumble clean in clean corncob, uniform primer pockets using a carbide tool with fixzed depth stop, deburr flash holes with a No. 2 long center drill the first time they are loaded, then hand prime brass so primers are always seated carefully by feel in a clean pocket. I use the Dillon RL550b for load assembly to flare case mouths, measure powder, seat bullets and crimp. I use this same simplified process in loading .45 ACP my match ammo as well.

Using the Lee Factory Crimp die sizes the bullet only if needed to ensure that rounds do not exceed SAAMI Maximum cartridge dimensions. It does so by gentle compression f the bullet inside the case instead of reducing it by radically shear in a die. The un-sized, exposed bevel band of the DEWC ahead of the case mouth enables a positive gas seal in revolver cylinder throats. My .38 Special wadcutter reloads average sub 2-inch 5-shot revolver groups at 50 yards from Ransom Rest in long series of targets. It takes a very good lot of factory wad-cutters to beat this.
 
I can remember buying 38 WCs around 1975, they were $8 plus brass for reloads at the local police supply.

Yes, and in today's money that was about $32 a box, so $15 a box current price is cheap.

1975 minimum wage was $1.29. College tuition at a state university was $700 a year (not a semester). You could buy a Toyota Corolla for $2600. McDonalds sold a Big Mac, Shake and Fries for under $1. Just cost of a few things that I remember.
 
I remember Zero brand .38 reloads being $3.50 a box with brass exchange in 1978.

Steve, you're right about the Toyota Corolla. I paid $2885 for a new 1976 Corolla, with radio, tax included, in October 1975. I got seven good years out of that car before it rusted to pieces.
 
I finally shot my first batch, and it was fun shooting the light ones. Like a .22lr! The mid 600 were very soft shooting.

I know I need to actually shoot to figure out which is best, but for a solid bevel base wadcutter (as pictured several posts up), what velocity would be best? Around 700, or up to 750?
 
Ed Harris rocks! Been using his solvent forever. Learned about it on Shooters.com. Remember that site?

I used to like flush-loaded Remingtons over 3.4 grains of Clays in 357 brass until I bought QuickLoad software... way too much pressure. I now like either Speer or Remington HBWC over 3.8-4.1grs of 231 loadeed to an OAL of 1.400". I recenly reworked these loads and couldn't be happier. Half-inch groups out of a 4" revolver at 15 yards from a benchrest are hard to beat.
 
Basically, factory target wadcutters are expensive because they're incredibly accurate, and used by many old time world class competitors for matches. :cool:
 
I load the Lyman 358495 WC with 2.1 grains of Trail Boss. Its a very light plinking load that is pleasant to shoot out of a Airweight snubbie. It makes about 515 fps out of the 1 7/8" barrel. I get my lead for free, or nearly free, and with bulk bought primers and powder I'm hovering around $0.03 per shot, not including brass, which I have tons of and lasts forever at WC load levels.
 
Shrinkmd: I Think you are a little confused on bullet terminology. HBWC means Hollow Base Wad Cutter a target bullet that actually has a hollow base or skirt that is designed to expand and seal the bore upon firing to allow complete burning of the small charge of Bullseye or WW231 powder. They were basically used in bullseye competiton in the Colt and S&W target revolvers, and the S&W Mdl 52 Master that shot only the 38 Spl wad cutters seated flush to the case mouth. Your bullet picture is a standard wad cutter bullet with a flat base and not hollow based. This bullet can be readily cast. BTW, back in the days when I shot bullseye competiton, my load was 2.7 gr of Bullseye powder in my Smith 52.
 
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