Why aren't CCW holders allowed to carry into a Post Office?

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

Has anyone read this? I mean REALLY read this? Nowhere does it say it shall be unlawful to carry(bring, bear, etc.) a firearm or other dangerous weapon into a Federal facility ... Just that you shall be fined and/or imprisoned if you do. You only break this law if you are in law enforcement/adjudication and fail to arrest, fine and/or imprison anyone who does bring a firearm or dangerous weapon into such a facility. That is the literal reading of the law.

One needs to refer to the Postal Code as pointed out earlier.

TITLE 39--POSTAL SERVICE

CHAPTER I--UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE

PART 232--CONDUCT ON POSTAL PROPERTY--Table of Contents

Sec. 232.1 Conduct on postal property.
a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under
the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies,
and to all persons entering in or on such property. This section shall
be posted and kept posted at a conspicuous place on all such property.
...

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may
carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either
openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for
official purposes.

US Code Title 18, Section 930 gave teeth to the Postal Code in the Federal Regulations. (Those are the laws the agency comes up with on its own.)

It's interesting to note, however, that in Oklahoma at least, one may enter onto post office property not intended for the exclusive use of Postal Service vehicles or personnel to conduct business with the public. One may park their car in the regular parking lot with a gun secured inside it, and may enter the foyer area where there is access to post office boxes, stamp vending machines, and mailing slots while armed.

Woody

 

[Big45]

Who goes to the PO anymore?

 

[SSN Vet]

because they might "go postal"

oh, wait a minute....that's the postal workers who go postal, at the prospect of losing their cushy union jobs.

not the postal patrons...

another classic example of America punishing the innocent to make up for our innept ability to punish the guilty.

does any one else feel like their in 3rd grade.

 

[Car Knocker]

I'd say you can't carry in a post office for the same reason you can't carry in a school

Kind of a broad statement there - I legally CCW in schools several times a week. There is no federal law that bans CCW in schools.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

Quote:
Originally Posted by hugh damright
I'd say you can't carry in a post office for the same reason you can't carry in a school

Kind of a broad statement there - I legally CCW in schools several times a week. There is no federal law that bans CCW in schools.

The gun free zone for schools don't apply if you have a permit. In Utah, the permit let's you carry onto school property. If it's a public school they can't tell you you can't because they're agents of the state. On private school property, there's nothing wrong with carrying unless they tell you not to. In that case, a private school is treated like privately owned property, you can unless they post a sign or tell you that you can't. In the written test to get my Utah permit, I remember there was a question asking if you can carry into post offices. Even though I don't remember the lecture saying anything about them, I remember saying on the test that you can't carry into post offices and I wasn't marked wrong on that answer, so I would assume that you can't carry into post offices in Utah because although their not federal government they have certain rights from them or whatever.

 

[Valkman]

Because no one stands up and fights it? Here in lovely Pahrump we have some die-hard guys who open carry everywhere. They've had run-ins with the police and almost a shootout at McDonalds when a young Deputy got frustrated and put his hand on his gun. Because of all this we can carry at the Library, the PO and the DMV - although I think the DMV is concealed only.

 

[shield20]

The federal gun free school zone law allows for states with background-check permit systems to make their own laws even though the feds says it is ok. (and then holds federal funds hostage to try to get the states to comply)

In that way - although the law of the land says IT IS OK if you have a permit, the state can still deny that right (like here in NY) without being in conflict. NY does narrow the restriction to school grounds, so I can ignore the federal 1000' limit.


Title 18 USC 922(q)

(2) (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone*.

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm:

(i) on private property not part of school grounds;

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

...

(4) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as preempting or preventing a State or local government from enacting a statute establishing gun free school zones as provided in this subsection.


*(25) The term "school zone" means:

(A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or

(B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.

(26) The term "school" means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.

 

[hugh damright]

The gun free zone for schools don't apply if you have a permit.

I didn't realize that ... in Virginia CCW permits do not allow a person to carry on school property.

 

[tulsamal]

I didn't realize that ... in Virginia CCW permits do not allow a person to carry on school property.

Every state is different.

I have an 8 year old and a 10 year old. They are in different schools this year. I drop them off and pick them up. Under Oklahoma law, I'm allowed to be carrying a gun when doing that. "Passing through" to drop off or pick up. Staying with the car at all times. I'm NOT allowed to get out and walk into the school with my concealed weapon. And I'm NOT allowed to park on school property and leave the gun behind in the locked car. If I want to go inside to talk to somebody, I have to park across the street and leave the gun out there.

Drives me crazy but that's the law! (And the same stupid thing with the PO where I have to leave my gun in the car when I go in to get a money order!)

Gregg

 

[geekWithA.45]

Every state is different.

Ayep.

PA has a "lawful purposes" escape clause in it's statute prohibiting arms in schools k-12.

Nonetheless, there's some ambiguity in the wording, a lack of case law to settle the matter, and a blanket statement that "a risk of prosecution exists".

 

[Nate C.]

In the interest of addressing some of the grossly inaccurate information being passed in this thread, the following data was ripped directly from the Wikipedia and USPS websites (in no particular order).

1.) "The United States Postal Service (USPS) is an independent establishment of the executive branch of the United States government (see 39 U.S.C. § 201) responsible for providing postal service in the U.S...it is wholly owned by the government and controlled by the Presidential appointees and the Postmaster General. As a quasi-governmental agency, it has many special privileges, including sovereign immunity, eminent domain powers..."

2.) Postal facilities are federal property and Postal employees are federal employees.

3.) Last but not least:

39 CFR 232.1 states in part:

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either
openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for
official purposes.

(p) Penalties and other law.
(1) Alleged violations of these rules
and regulations are heard, and the penalties prescribed herein are
imposed, either in a Federal district court or by a Federal magistrate
in accordance with applicable court rules. Questions regarding such
rules should be directed to the regional counsel for the region
involved.
(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated.

 

[jrfoxx]

2.) Postal facilities are federal property and Postal employees are federal employees.

And just to muddy the waters even more, I know for a fact that the Shell gas station by my house has a post office in it, but isnt federal property, and NONE on the employees who work the post office are federal employees, they are whichever Shell employee hasppens to be working the cash register that day.Are we more confused on the issue yet? I sure am.
What we need is a test case to hash this out once and for all.
1...2...3...NOT IT!

 

[flynlr]

lets get more confused here. I work for the postal service and cannot carry my CCW into the office but do keep it in the car, the property is leased by the postal service . when I can I do park on the street but sometimes its full.
the plus side is I do have full federal benefits.

 

[brickeyee]

"the property is leased by the postal service"

Leased property is 'owned' by the tenant to the extent provided for in the lease.
If the post office leases property it becomes the same as any other post office property.

 

[30 cal slob]

several years ago i was doing some financial work on the USPS. at the time, some of the credit rating agences lumped USPS with other private government-sponsored enterprises (GSE's).

this wikipedia definition has me really confused now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usps

The United States Postal Service (USPS) is an independent establishment of the executive branch of the United States government (see 39 U.S.C. § 201) responsible for providing postal service in the U.S. Within the United States, it is colloquially referred to simply as "the post office", "the postal service", "the mail" or "USPS".

 

[TargetTerror]

lets get more confused here. I work for the postal service and cannot carry my CCW into the office but do keep it in the car, the property is leased by the postal service . when I can I do park on the street but sometimes its full.

I remember reading the case that dealt with exactly this issue while looking for the answer to my question. The court held that the post office parking lot ws not considered a "federal facility" for the purpose of section 930.

 

[ATAShooter]

OK, did you guys a favor. My wife workks at a Main PD&C for the USPO. She was able to get an Inspector to talk to me. I had a chance to ask a Postal Inspector face to face. He said the provision of " Lawful Purposes" means like a policeman dropping off mail, Guards executing duty for the USPO, stuff like that, something where duty is envolved. Harry homeowner citizen, NO. I asked " Even with a State CCW? " he said State CCW does not apply to Federal Facilities. I said " But the USPO is not owned by the feds, so how can it be Federal Property ?". He stated they are ran under Federal Guidelines and although they are a Entity of their own, all rules and regulation fall under Federal Standards. I said " So, if I bring a loaded conceiled handgun here, even with a CCW,... " he replied, " You go to Jail".

I had went thru this kind of before. My wife got a CCW and wanted to pack due to she ends her shift at 12:30 at night, the parking lot isn't well lit, and the PD&C she is at, is really in a bad part of town. So I kind of already knew what he was gonna say.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

hugh damright wrote:

I didn't realize that ... in Virginia CCW permits do not allow a person to carry on school property.

Tulsamal wrote:

Every state is different.

I have an 8 year old and a 10 year old. They are in different schools this year. I drop them off and pick them up. Under Oklahoma law, I'm allowed to be carrying a gun when doing that. "Passing through" to drop off or pick up. Staying with the car at all times. I'm NOT allowed to get out and walk into the school with my concealed weapon. And I'm NOT allowed to park on school property and leave the gun behind in the locked car. If I want to go inside to talk to somebody, I have to park across the street and leave the gun out there.

Drives me crazy but that's the law! (And the same stupid thing with the PO where I have to leave my gun in the car when I go in to get a money order!)

Gregg

Tulsa, VA has essentially the same law. You can legally have a loaded firearm on your hip on school property, but the law says you can't leave your car. As someone else said, "Does anyone else feel like we're in the third grade here?"

-Sans Authoritas

 

[Rambling_one]

If the Bill of Rights was intended to restrict the federal government and the 2A shall not be infringed, under what authority does the federal government ban firearms on "our" property.

 

[Old Dog]

I'm with Big45, who asked

Who goes to the PO anymore?

My local UPS store is far more efficient, never has any lines (well, maybe during the Christmas mailing season) and actually has friendly employees. Get my stamps through the mail.

Believe this very question was hashed out at length on the GunZone, TFL and THR for an excruciatingly painful couple of months way back when ... with still no official verdict rendered.

 

[AntiqueCollector]

OK, did you guys a favor. My wife workks at a Main PD&C for the USPO. She was able to get an Inspector to talk to me. I had a chance to ask a Postal Inspector face to face. He said the provision of " Lawful Purposes" means like a policeman dropping off mail, Guards executing duty for the USPO, stuff like that, something where duty is envolved. Harry homeowner citizen, NO.

Did you point out the relevant law mentions "hunting" and "other lawful purposes"? The law contains nothing to suggest that person's interpretation is correct, but evidence against that interpretation is contained in the law.

 

[ServiceSoon]

Does it make sense to write a letter to Michael Mukasey asking him to clarify the law?

 

[mek42]

Regarding the Title 18 Section 39 part 322 "official purpose" - is "official" defined in 322?

Also, since black powder cap and ball revolvers are not firearms according to the US Gov't (correct me if I am wrong here - I may be getting confused with NY State law), clearly one can carry these into the post office and other federal facilities, right?

 

[MD_Willington]

the only "official purpose" of carrying a long arm into a usps location is to ship it according to the post office in my town unless you're a LEO getting your mail...

 

[rj713]

Don't know about other places but here in lower Alabama a number of Post Offices have metal detectors at the door. I won't carry in a Post Office as I have no desire to be a test case.
Ralph