Why Aren't There More Semi-Automatic Versions Of LMGs available?

Status
Not open for further replies.

damien

Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
1,212
Location
Northern IL, USA
It is legal, as far as I know, to take a belt-fed machine gun and make a semi-automatic version. I've heard of M-60s (but never seen one) being semi-automatic and there are quite a few M1919's semi-autos floating around. Is there a current M-60 semi-auto being made? How about M240, M249, CETME Ameli, or MG3s? Any reason why they would not make these available?
 
I have viewed an M-60 semi-auto and also an belt-fed PKM's in semi-auto. There are several types of military MG's converted to semi, but they seem to be a little on the pricey side. Do a search on GunBroker to view some of the above mentioned guns.
 
Cost perhaps? A M249 (popular with people from video games I would imagine) is a couple thousand dollar unit (being a full auto machine). Imagine a short run of semi-auto variants taking up production time/resources. Those would easily cost 10K or above. Plus, many of the companies that produce them do not want their weapons (HK comes to mind :)) sold to civilians due to liabilities and other stuff. Civilians tend to do stupid stuff with guns (shoot up schools or North Hollywood) or convert them to automatic (violating even more laws!). Government, while killing on a larger scale, tend to be justified if they do something wrong.

I would love to have a semi-auto MG42 though...Even if it can only take a magazine instead of belt :). Would be an extremely reliable weapon by design.
 
Geoff is right, it costs a lot of money to design a weapon that looks exactly like an open bolt MG but fires from a closed bolt.

BAR, 1919, M60, M2, MG42. I've personally seen and fired semi clones of those so they are out there.
 
If you have the scratch, OOW is selling a semi M240 ($13,500)

http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/semi-auto/m240slr.htm

I opted for an RPD and couldnt be happier.

rpd6.jpg
 
If you have the scratch, OOW is selling a semi M240 ($13,500)

http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/semi-auto/m240slr.htm

This is what I was talking about, I just couldn't find it. Too bad I cannot afford. :(

FAS gives the M60 a replacement cost of $6000. M240 a replacement cost of $6600

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m60e3.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m240g.htm

Why couldn't a 3rd party Class-3 manufacturer buy these as machine guns as new and convert them to semi? They would be expensive, but one would think less than $10K.

Of course, I still can not afford... :(

After the house payment is over maybe then... ;)
 
Why couldn't a 3rd party Class-3 manufacturer buy these as machine guns as new and convert them to semi?

Because our friends at the ATF have a rule, "once a machinegun always a machinegun".

You cannot legally convert a registered machinegun back to a Title I weapon.

So, you get what most of the makers are offering; a new manufactured receiver built solely for the semi market, and the rest of the rifle put together with surplus parts from the "real deal".
 
Because our friends at the ATF have a rule, "once a machinegun always a machinegun".

Good point, forgot about that one. I suppose the remanufacturer could manufacture a new receiver, which then bumps the cost up even more...
 
I suppose the remanufacturer could manufacture a new receiver, which then bumps the cost up even more...

Well then, again thanks to our friends at ATF, you end up with a receiver that might be considered "easy to convert".

Every one of the semi clones that is out there has had to be approved by the ATF as not being able to be easily converted back to full auto.

So it's more than just making a copy of the receiver, you have to modify the workings to make it different enough that you can't just drop the full auto parts in and go rock and roll.

Look at the websites of the companies selling these things, they all reference a letter from ATF approving their receiver modifications.


All that is very time consuming and expensive unfortunately.
 
Basically all of those major designs exist out there somewhere in semiauto, but they're mostly running several thousand each. The cheapest ATM is almost certainly the 1919. If you have enough money, anything is possible...but when it costs as much as a decent transferable assault rifle, what's the point?
 
The main issue is the lack of parts kits now. Home converted browning .30s where very popular for a hot while till the parts kits dryed up. The legal part in the things is the right side plate of the receiver is all and then a new bolt and several other small parts, viola legal M-1919 semi LMG.
 
JRW semi M60 ATF Letter

Does anyone have a copy of this letter. If so could you share with me.

thanks

Travis
 
You missed a decimal and you're off a couple hundred.

The OOW RPD is about $1800. There's one at the Syracuse gunshow in NY every time, and I've often considered buying it, but I already have my DP-28.

I once saw a semi-auto M-60. Apparently one of less than a hundred ever made, factory list was $7,800 when new and I saw it sell for $13,000.

The reason for cost is ATF approval and conversion from open-bolt to closed-bolt, you have to add a triggergroup that does more than just let the bolt slamfire shut.
 
Just in a practical sense (I know, there's no saying you want it for any practical purpose) a semi-auto version of an MG or LMG is heavier and clumsier than a light rifle. A .308 semi auto like an FAL, AR-10 or M1A, etc., is a whole lot more useful in that you carry it around and fire it from the shoulder easily. But then, a belt fed would be cool. I have to admit I've lusted for a semi-auto M2.
 
On a slightly different note, you might check out the Ares Shrike. Basically a belt fed upper for an AR. Not a Class 3 or anything like that, just takes a realllllly big magazine ;)

-Jenrick
 
Have they actually shipped any of those? Last time I looked up "vaporware" in Wikipedia there was a picture of the Shrike...

Mike
 
"...Cost perhaps?..." Cost, period, and a lack of market. Then you get into the receiver having to be brand new. There's no converting an FA to semi-auto as far as the ATF is concerned. "Once and MG, always an MG".
Mind you, if Stateside shooters(and the NRA) were yelling at your elected representatives about a government agency being allowed to make law by regulation....
 
This is mostly what we manufacture..

A whole lot of things come to mind in response to this question!
I think the biggest thing is resources.
Some of these type firearms take a long time to convert to semi-auto in a manner that the BATFE FTB will approve.
You have to be able to keep the doors open while working through all the hurdles.
The project has to be big enough to re-pay all the time/effort/money invested.
Your company has to have the machines and know-how to actually move the FTB approved design from a hand fitted prototype to a production line.
You need REAL money to advertise.
You need to be a licensed, bonded and insured manufacturer or the distributors won't even talk to you about stocking your product. That insurance alone is a huge overhead. Add on medical coverage for the employees.
OH, and don't forget that the BATFE collects Federal Excise Tax (about 10%) on every firearm that you manufacture. It comes right off the top.
Now factor in the office staff it takes to track all the records and keep the "bound books" in order. Figure at least 250 entries a week. Expect to cease operations at least once a quarter to conduct an internal audit. That will take a day or two. Also expect to handle a BATFE compliance inspection at least once a year. That can be a few days or a week. BATFE is taking note of all the manufacturers. They just conducted their first "Manufacturers Conference" in Washington. They put out some new guidance and restated a lot of areas where they noted "weaknesses".
Try and figure out what states, counties and cities have regulations prohibiting sales of the firearms you manufacture! Some won't even allow a non-functioning "non-gun" example to be sold/possessed. It is a lot of reading, and the BATFE states you have to abide by all the state laws.

I think you can get the idea that this isn't easy...

It is why we do most of our work under contract as it can reduce the initial costs. Buying/owning hundreds of part sets can idle an awful lot of needed working capitol. With Banks tightening up on business loans you have to watch every dollar spent.
I am typing too much!
This all seems so much more reasonable an effort when we are test firing product!

Regards,
Richard C. Hamer
Factory Representative
Wise Lite Arms
Class II Manufacturer
07 FFL SOT
FAX: (940) 433-8096
WEBSITE: http://www.wlarms.com/
SALES: [email protected]
INFORMATION: [email protected]
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top