why certain laws?

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Tim37

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ok i can kinda understand why there are some laws (if i agree or not) but some just dont make any sence to me. like sbr's and sbs's. what does it matter the lenth of a rifle barrel and who cars how long a shot gun barrel is from my under standing after about 16 inches your loosing velocity so 18 inches is a good number for most people. also supressors its not like they work like in the movies you still have a very audible report but it would be nice to shoot without ear protection. then theres things like the 8 gauge, frome my understanding a 3.5" 12 gauge surpasses a 8 gauges any way. so why all these arbatray laws.

btw i know most of these things can be atained with a tax stamp but i dont want to have to pay a extra 200 bucks so i can have a 10.5" barrel on my tompson it would be cool to have that barrel but for now i will stick with the 16" version.
 
like sbr's and sbs's. what does it matter the length of a rifle barrel and who cars how long a shot gun barrel is

In the original version of NFA '34, pistols (and thus any short firearm) were NFA items.
Pistols were removed from it but the lawmakers neglected/forgot/couldn't be bothered to remove the OAL and barrel length restrictions.:banghead:
 
It all goes back to the "crime wave" of the early 1930's. It actually may not have been a "crime wave" but the mass media and the movies played it up as such. Congress and the then Attorney General responded and gave us the NFA. The idea was to outlaw concealable and full-automatic arms. (The NFA was originally intended to include all handguns, but that was taken out in the legislative process.) The $200 tax was thought, at the time, to be practically prohibitive without making a flat prohibition which, even then, would probably have been ruled unconstitutional. The specifics, such as the permissible barrel length, were more or less arbitrary.
 
When handguns were taken out of the bill in the last minute due to public pressure all the provisions to keep people from converting long guns into concealable handguns remained in the bill and became law. That is why rifles with detatchable buttstocks and short barrels are illegal. Of course it makes no sense when you can still buy a handgun that will out preform any chopped rifle and can easily be concealed in your shorts.

The best way to make the law respected is to make it respectable.
 
thanks i that answers my question.

now i guess i need to get elected supreme overlord of everything so i can change that.

vote for Tim
 
It all goes back to the "crime wave" of the early 1930's. It actually may not have been a "crime wave" but the mass media and the movies played it up as such. Congress and the then Attorney General responded and gave us the NFA. The idea was to outlaw concealable and full-automatic arms. (The NFA was originally intended to include all handguns, but that was taken out in the legislative process.) The $200 tax was thought, at the time, to be practically prohibitive without making a flat prohibition which, even then, would probably have been ruled unconstitutional. The specifics, such as the permissible barrel length, were more or less arbitrary.
The "crime wave" brought to you by prohibition...just like our latest "crime wave" has been brought to you by the "war on drugs"
 
Of course it makes no sense when you can still buy a handgun that will out preform any chopped rifle and can easily be concealed in your shorts.

There actually are chopped rifles that will greatly outperform a pistol. Rifle rounds that burn their powder quickly loose very little velocity when using shorter barrels. For example, both .300 Whisper and 7.62x39 work really well from short barrels, only loosing a few hundred fps going from 16" barrel to something substantially more compact like a 12" or 10" barrel. (I'm not running these through ballistics program so I don't have accurate numbers, but I still believe this to hold true at the specified barrel lengths.)

Rifles are also easier to aim with and carry more ammo etc... all in all, its hard to say a pistol will outperform it.

But yes, the SBR/SBS law came from when the first draft of the NFA prohibited handguns, but the SBR/SBS rule was left in even after handguns were removed. Very few gun laws that regulate hardware actually have a good, legitimate reason for being there (922(r), ATF's "point system" for importing handguns, etc.).
 
There is no hard evidence that any gun control law of any sort has ever had any utility in reducing the rate of violent crime with firearms. There is credible statistical research showing that no gun control law has ever been efficacious in reducing violent crimes involving firearms.

One of the better books on this subject is "Under The Gun" by Wright/Rossi/Daly; 1985, University of Florida Press.

Most laws result from wrongful perceptions and the emotional drive to "Do something!" However, as Tamara puts it, "Ignorance is no excuse for a law."
 
It's also a means of the government exercising control of yet another aspect of our lives. Does it actually do any real good? No but the government gets to extend its nose just a bit further into our business.
 
I Said:
Of course it makes no sense when you can still buy a handgun that will out preform any chopped rifle and can easily be concealed in your shorts.

To which Telekinesis replied:
There actually are chopped rifles that will greatly outperform a pistol.


When I say "out preform" I mean in the role of armed robbery. A stick-up man is not really concerned about velocity loss or long range accuracy. He wants something cheap, concealable, and disposable. Most firearm crimes are committed with handguns. This is NOT because handguns are more accurate or powerful, it is because they are easy to hide under your clothes. Something with a butt stock is much harder to conceal and not necessary at close range where bank robberies occur.

Come to think of it, if the NFA of ’34 was really about preventing crime, they should have REQUIRED all hand guns to have a butt stock, it would make them much harder to conceal. Then again, bank robbers don’t follow the law and could easily saw them off.
 
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bank robbers don’t follow the law and could easily saw them off

Seriously? They might go to jail if they did this. (tongue out of cheek now.)
 
QUOTE: "why certain laws"

That's why we sometimes call our elected officials "lawmakers," a term that often makes me want to puke! If they don't make laws how are their constituents going to know they are doing their job and thus get themselves RE-ELECTED? I myself much prefer the status quo. If they don't make any new laws, that's one less law to restrict me. Here in WA we have a number of "lawmakers" who are pissing all over themselves to write redundant laws because of the recent accidental gun accidents involving children. Never mind that we already have laws to very adequately cover the subject. How many gun laws do we have now, twenty-thousand?
 
When I say "out preform" I mean in the role of armed robbery.

Ah, that makes more sense now. I thought you were referring to short rifles in general and not as their use in a crime like that. I agree, for a criminal, a handgun does make much more sense being easier to hide and easier to get rid of if need be.
 
Most gun laws don't make sense because we assume gun laws are about controlling guns and controlling guns makes no sense. But gun laws are really about controlling violence.

An oft seen criticism of the gun violence statistics put forth by anti-2A forces is that the stats are padded by the inclusion of legitimate gun uses where the victim was a criminal shot in the course of a crime. Think about this, because it illustrates a very basic difference between the two sides. Most 2A supporters are anti-crime, and the legal use of a gun to defend against a criminal act is accepted as a legitimate use. Crime is first and foremost a violation of the victims rights to life, liberty, property, pursuit of happiness, often in combination. Rights are worthy of defense, and if the right to keep and bear arms is the right that protects all other rights, then it is natural and proper to use those arms to resist criminal acts.

2A opponents may be anti crime, but first and foremost, they are anti-violence and they see it this way: Violence facilitates crime, but violence is evil. Crime without violence is just a result of society's failure to support its members, but since violence makes crime easier that is why criminals resort to it. A gun is an instrument of violence. Any use of a gun is violence in some form and they are thus opposed to that use no matter how legal or even benign it might be. Self Defense? That is violence to another human being. Hunting? That means the violent death of a living creature. Target shooting? It is just practicing to kill. Benchrest? Looks like a sophisticated sniper rifle. To use a gun is to use violence and violence is unacceptable.

A historical look at gun laws will show that the ultimate intent of most gun laws in most cities and states is to curb violence, not crime. A duty to retreat is a requirement to avoid confrontation that can lead to violence. Mugging victims are advised to cooperate with the mugger and give them what they want so as to avoid violence. Of course, since most person on person crime is violent crime, curbing violence is seen as also curbing crime. But make no mistake. In the eyes of the Antis, violence is the greater problem and they believe that if violence can be controlled or eliminated, crime can be addressed through improved economic opportunity; because people don't choose to be criminals, they are forced to be criminals (often by the economic injustices of a capitalistic society).

"If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." The anti response is, "Guns should be outlawed because only outlaws have a use for guns." Peaceful, law-abiding citizens should be non-violent and a non-violent person has no need for an instrument of violence. The focus is always on violence.

This is a difference at the belief level. Beliefs are what forms a person's world view. Beliefs define who a person is. They are not easily shaken, and almost never by logical or emotional argument. Beliefs can be shaken by experience that is counter to belief. When life experience is counter to belief, either belief changes to reflect the reality of the experience, or reality is rejected and replaced with a fantasy where the belief is valid. This is called deliusion.

Most Antis are not willfully delusional because they have never had a personal experience that challenged their belief. It is interesting that many 2A supporters have had experiences that confirm their belief. They are naively delusional because of their acceptance of a belief that has no factual basis.

There is a reason that many if not most Antis are upper-middle and upper class intellectual elitists. Their lifestyles tend to isolate them from the personal experiences that would challenge their beliefs. And because their experiences do not challenge their beleifs, they assume their experiences (or lack thereof) confirm their beliefs. And with their beleifs thus confirmed, they feel totally justified in trying to mold society accordingly. Convincing them otherwise requires changing what they believe, not how they think. It means changing who they are not what they want to do. And it is like trying to argue with a termite while it is eating your house.
 
Politcians write laws and politicians aren't rational. At least not usually anyway. The laws governing the ownership and usage of firearms in many case were indeed drafted to curb violence. These days however it is more about controlling the people than protecting them. Every now and then one of our great Washington masters will slip and actually admit this and then try to take it back or try to recover from their mistake by trying to be clever with their words.

My first sentence is all you really need to understand though.
 
These days however it is more about controlling the people than protecting them

For progressives, it is about what it has always been about and it is not protecting people--at least not individuals. It is about protecting society from the selfishness of individuals. It is always about the "greater good" which is anathema to individual liberty.
 
Come to think of it, slavery was for "the greater good" amd was supported by the majority in the old South. The problem is that it violated the rights of the individual. Gun control laws are no different.
 
Come to think of it, slavery was for "the greater good" amd was supported by the majority in the old South. The problem is that it violated the rights of the individual. Gun control laws are no different.

Now try telling that to a termite.
 
But gun laws are really about controlling violence
FAIL
it's not about violence, read about it and the people proposing changes ADMIT that it's not about violence that the gun laws will have NO overall effect

so you get to second line excuses (mind you the usual response to the above fact by those NOT knowledgeable is that "guns are bad"

The second line excuse is that by banning gun, you make crimes LESS LETHAL as the criminal has to work harder to stab you, or bludgeon you to death.
 
About 5% of the laws on the books are necessary for the regulation of society. The other 95% are the imposition of someone’s will.
 
it's not about violence, read about it and the people proposing changes ADMIT that it's not about violence that the gun laws will have NO overall effect

The leadership has its own agenda, but for the rank and file supporters the focus is on the violence. The leaders don't always (usually?) tell the followers where they are really going.
 
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