Why Did it Have to be … Guns? (He is absolutly right)

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Desertdog

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Why Did it Have to be … Guns?

http://www.libertyforall.net/2004/april11/Guns.html

by L. Neil Smith

Over the past 30 years, I've been paid to write almost two million words, every one of which, sooner or later, came back to the issue of guns and gun-ownership. Naturally, I've thought about the issue a lot, and it has always determined the way I vote.

People accuse me of being a single-issue writer, a single- issue thinker, and a single- issue voter, but it isn't true. What I've chosen, in a world where there's never enough time and energy, is to focus on the one political issue which most clearly and unmistakably demonstrates what any politician -- or political philosophy -- is made of, right down to the creamy liquid center.

Make no mistake: all politicians -- even those ostensibly on the side of guns and gun ownership -- hate the issue and anyone, like me, who insists on bringing it up. They hate it because it's an X-ray machine. It's a Vulcan mind-meld. It's the ultimate test to which any politician -- or political philosophy -- can be put.

If a politician isn't perfectly comfortable with the idea of his average constituent, any man, woman, or responsible child, walking into a hardware store and paying cash -- for any rifle, shotgun, handgun, machinegun, anything -- without producing ID or signing one scrap of paper, he isn't your friend no matter what he tells you.

If he isn't genuinely enthusiastic about his average constituent stuffing that weapon into a purse or pocket or tucking it under a coat and walking home without asking anybody's permission, he's a four-flusher, no matter what he claims.

What his attitude -- toward your ownership and use of weapons -- conveys is his real attitude about you. And if he doesn't trust you, then why in the name of John Moses Browning should you trust him?

If he doesn't want you to have the means of defending your life, do you want him in a position to control it?

If he makes excuses about obeying a law he's sworn to uphold and defend -- the highest law of the land, the Bill of Rights -- do you want to entrust him with anything?

If he ignores you, sneers at you, complains about you, or defames you, if he calls you names only he thinks are evil -- like "Constitutionalist" -- when you insist that he account for himself, hasn't he betrayed his oath, isn't he unfit to hold office, and doesn't he really belong in jail?

Sure, these are all leading questions. They're the questions that led me to the issue of guns and gun ownership as the clearest and most unmistakable demonstration of what any given politician -- or political philosophy -- is really made of.

He may lecture you about the dangerous weirdos out there who shouldn't have a gun -- but what does that have to do with you? Why in the name of John Moses Browning should you be made to suffer for the misdeeds of others? Didn't you lay aside the infantile notion of group punishment when you left public school -- or the military? Isn't it an essentially European notion, anyway -- Prussian, maybe -- and certainly not what America was supposed to be all about?

And if there are dangerous weirdos out there, does it make sense to deprive you of the means of protecting yourself from them? Forget about those other people, those dangerous weirdos, this is about you, and it has been, all along.

Try it yourself: if a politician won't trust you, why should you trust him? If he's a man -- and you're not -- what does his lack of trust tell you about his real attitude toward women? If "he" happens to be a woman, what makes her so perverse that she's eager to render her fellow women helpless on the mean and seedy streets her policies helped create? Should you believe her when she says she wants to help you by imposing some infantile group health care program on you at the point of the kind of gun she doesn't want you to have?

On the other hand -- or the other party -- should you believe anything politicians say who claim they stand for freedom, but drag their feet and make excuses about repealing limits on your right to own and carry weapons? What does this tell you about their real motives for ignoring voters and ramming through one infantile group trade agreement after another with other countries?

Makes voting simpler, doesn't it? You don't have to study every issue -- health care, international trade -- all you have to do is use this X-ray machine, this Vulcan mind-meld, to get beyond their empty words and find out how politicians really feel. About you. And that, of course, is why they hate it.

And that's why I'm accused of being a single-issue writer, thinker, and voter.

But it isn't true, is it?


Contact L. Neil Smith at [email protected]
 
I like his attitude, but...

If a politician isn't perfectly comfortable with the idea of his average constituent, any man, woman, or responsible child, walking into a hardware store and paying cash -- for any rifle, shotgun, handgun, machinegun, anything -- without producing ID or signing one scrap of paper, he isn't your friend no matter what he tells you.
Ok, so if I enter politics and I am uneasy about anyone being able to purchase a machinegun, hand grenade, or high explosives w/o producing ID or signing a peice of paper, then I am un-trustworthy?


Why am I so dispicable because I dont think that an M-60 should be purchased without a 4473? Why am I so dispicable because I want hand greanades, RPG's, and dynamite/TNT/C-4/Semtex/det cord to be regulated by the states, and requireing an adult signature along with some sort of paperwork? I mean, there is a difference between being lax with gun laws, but HIGH EXPLOSIVES? Its dangerous stuff. There are limits, you know.


Now, if I had my choice between someone being able to go buy a Tommy Gun and TNT at my local hardware store and the laws we have now, I would take the Tommy Gun and TNT every time. At least I know that no liberties are being curtailed while people are out blowing themselves up and whomever else is in the vicinity.


Ok, flame away.:rolleyes:
 
Want a flame? Here ya go! :)

You seen to be as much in favor of "reasonable restrictions" as our liberal nemeses.* Your views differ only in degree, not in principle.

Author Mark Raynor offered the anecdote of something George Bernard Shaw was reported to have asked a socialite. “Would you sleep with me for a million pounds?†he asked her.

“Certainly,†she replied with a smile.

“Would you sleep with me for ten pounds?†Shaw then asked.

“Certainly not!†she replied indignantly. “What do you think I am?â€

“We’ve already established that,†Shaw said. “Now we’re just haggling over price.â€

There. Flamey enough for ya? :)





---------------------------------------------------------
* Yes, that is the plural of nemesis. I looked it up!
 
Mike, the first time I handled dynamite was when I was twelve years old. I was helping an old farmer blow some stumps and we ran out of dynamite. So he wrote a note to the owner of the local general store and I took it, on my bike, and returned with twelve more sticks in my basket.

What was the difference between then and now? A lot more than 58 years. It was a whole different world then. We didn't have government control of every waking moment of our lives. We took care of our own emergencies with never a call to the local sheriff, as if he could have helped had we called.

I remember a man who molested his own children and what happened to him. The "official" story claimed he committed suicide but I know for a fact that there were a lot of witnesses. I wasn't one of them, but my dad and two of my uncles were, along with eight or ten others.

We tell ourselves (and others) that guns don't kill people, people do. Well, dynamite, C-4, primacord, etc., are no more dangerous than a gun. It's the people who handle it that are dangerous. Had the government not tried to wipe everybodys noses and butts all our lives while telling us that we didn't know how to do it, even you would think nothing of some kid riding up on his bike and buying a few sticks of 60% dynamite.

Check your frog. I think it's just about done.
 
so what happened to the perv?

since you are 70ish, I presume any involved parties have already gone on to their reward...

excuse me for asking, I know you were oblique for decency sake, but I am just curious if he did him self in under "advisement" or if he had "help".
 
Ugh. You seem to forget that common sense aint common. And 58 years ago people werent blowing up restaruants and shooting people because they didnt get their way.


LOOK: IF THE LAWS WOULD CHANGE ALONG WITH THE RESTRICTIONS, I WOULDNT BE AS OPPOSED TO IT. IF PEOPLE FRIED FOR COMMITING CRIMES WITH FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES, I WOULD STAND IN LINE TO REDUCE THESE RESTRICTIONS.
 
Matt and Oldfart said it much better than I could, but I'll give it a try anyhow.

The Constitution( of which I am unusually fond), say "shall not be infringed".
I believe in that document with all of my being.
If a man is too dangerous to be trusted with a firearm, don't let him out of prison. Execute the mother$%#$#$!
There is no need to infringe on my rights in order to protect me from others. If common sense legislation were in effect, there would be a lot less crime. By common sense, I mean if a man comes onto my property and refuses to leave, or I find him there at night without invitation, he should be fair game. You'd see a decrease in trespass and burglary real fast, I guarantee.
If a lunatic gets a gun at Sears and tries to harm me and mine with it, I'll shove it up his A$$ sideways, no doubt about it. And no law is gonna stop me. My family comes first.
I shouldn't have to ID myself to exercise a "inalienable right".
The problem is, the inmates have stolen the keys, and been running the asylum for too many years. Read the first half of my sig line.
 
LOOK: IF THE LAWS WOULD CHANGE ALONG WITH THE RESTRICTIONS, I WOULDNT BE AS OPPOSED TO IT. IF PEOPLE FRIED FOR COMMITING CRIMES WITH FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES, I WOULD STAND IN LINE TO REDUCE THESE RESTRICTIONS.

And I agree with you, sir. People should fry, and frequently.
Executions used to take place in the town square. It was a deterent. Execution has been sanitized, and society is the worse for it.
 
Pendragon; He was hanged with a piece of hemp rope. Funny thing; his hands were tied with some of the same stuff.

Before someone points out the illegality of what happened and suggests that the 'witnesses' were some sort of a drunken mob, let me set the record straight. There was a long (several hours, as I remember it) discussion about what to do and no drinking until everything was over. Unlike the old "B" grade western movies, the whole process was handled soberly and quietly.

Dad wouldn't let me come along since I was only eight years old but he told me that I was in charge of the house until he came back. I sat at the kitchen table, reading "Swiss Family Robinson" while watching the shotgun that stood in the corner.

Yeah, it was a different world.
 
I mean, there is a difference between being lax with gun laws, but HIGH EXPLOSIVES? Its dangerous stuff. There are limits, you know.
Limits?

We're talkin' "El Neil," here.

My tag line below is from Mr. Smith

Rick

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Sgt York Movie

iirc there is a part of the movie where Sgt Yorks younger brother goes to bring him home,the kid,about 11 yrs old,grabs the rifle off the mantle and goes into town to bring home his brother...It's a minor part of the movie but tells alot ablout how much you used to be able to trust kids.
 
And 58 years ago people werent blowing up restaruants and shooting people because they didnt get their way.

You sure you wanna stick with that statement?

"Terrorism" has been around for millennia ... the Goths sacked Rome "because they didnt' get their way" ... before Islamist terrorism was in vogue, the Basques and Albanians where blowing stuff up "because they didn't get their way". WWI was started because some guy in Sarajevo with a .32 Browning shot a prince "because he didn't get his way".

And a little over two hundred years ago some guys back east started shooting people "because they didn't get their way"

Saul said it about 2800 years ago "There is nothing new under the sun.


Moparmike, I don't think you're a bad guy for thinking the '68 GCA was a good idea ... I think you've just bought a lie.

If indeed "58 years ago people werent blowing up restaruants and shooting people because they didnt get their way." and there was no gun control, but today people are apparently blowing up and shooting up more stuff after gun control ... how does that show that gun control works (even "reasonable restrictions like the '68 GCA)?



Remember ... the bad guys buy their guns out of the trunks of cars ... with cash ... without filling out a 4473 anyway.
 
Why is it that in my day-to-day life, my friends seem to view me as a slightly paranoid survivalist gun nut (because I have a few guns and a little food and water), but when I read threads like this I'm clearly in the socialist, traitor camp?

Look, in a lot of ways I wish we were still living in the 1930's, when you could probably trust a kid to pick up a gun or some dynamite from the local hardware store. But today?? Give me a break. I think Mr. Smith is living in a romanticized version of the past that, perhaps sadly, does not exist anymore.

I don't want "any...responsible child" (and I've got a 12-year old son, trust me, that's an oxymoron) to be able to buy a machine gun. I don't want "any man," who may happen to be a terrorist, to be able to walk into the hardware store and buy a few cases of dynamite. Without ID, no less.

Some of you can--and undoubtedly will--disagree, but I disagree with Mr. Smith and I think his remarks are the kind of fanatical comments that the anti's seize upon to try to shut down our reasonable and lawful rights.
 
Look, in a lot of ways I wish we were still living in the 1930's, when you could probably trust a kid to pick up a gun or some dynamite from the local hardware store. But today?? Give me a break. I think Mr. Smith is living in a romanticized version of the past that, perhaps sadly, does not exist anymore.

But aside from the expectations of “perfect safety†(usually supposedly provided by the government) that we've been inculcated with in the past 70 years, are people – the vast majority of them, not the actually quite tiny lunatic fringe – really that much different in terms of decency than they were in the ‘30’s?

The problem is we’ve all been in this slowly heating pot for 70 years, and are all but incapable of even imagining a world where the vast majority of people simply took responsibility for their own lives, or expected to die suddenly, either from their own stupidity, or with appropriate help if they really annoyed the neighbors.

It is simply hard to step outside of the box we’re in. For example (an odd one, but bear with me for a bit) everywhere in Europe, and a good portion of the rest of the world, if one goes to the beach, one expects that both men and women will take expose their bare chests if they feel like it. It’s not a big deal, no one goes about raping and pillaging because they saw a woman’s breasts, eyebrows utterly fail to be raised: Nothing happens. Approximately the same percentage of Europeans are Christians as are Americans, but Christianity survives quite nicely there somehow.

But if we were to suggest that such behavior be legalized in America, (or worse yet unrestrained nudity on the beach <gasp!!>) I’m quite sure that any number of completely hysterical objections would be raised against this antisocial, vile, and dangerous practice. No, no, it must remain under control – to protect the children!!!

I don't want "any...responsible child" (and I've got a 12-year old son, trust me, that's an oxymoron) to be able to buy a machine gun.

But that’s the problem – it’s an oxymoron because we become a nation of cowering ninnies, who are just sure that even our own children are going to kill us or someone else if they don’t walk around encased in an idiot-proof shield 24/7. Let’s think here: Do you really mistrust your own child that much to believe that in a world where he had such responsibilities, he couldn’t rise to the occasion? Are you really telling us that your parenting skills are so bad?

[I rather doubt it.]

I don't want "any man," who may happen to be a terrorist, to be able to walk into the hardware store and buy a few cases of dynamite. Without ID, no less.

One word: ANFO. I guarantee your local terrorist knows how to make perfectly good explosives from ammonium nitrate (fertilizer) and fuel oil (diesel fuel). If he doesn’t, it took me all of 2 minutes and 6 seconds to look it up on the internet. But if I (or your allegedly oxymoronic son) wanted to kill quite a few someones, a half-filled 5-gallon gas can and a very primitive time-delay fuse [say a cigarette [incense even, anything slow-burning but hot] wrapped in a pack of matches] would do quite nicely.

Gas cans aren’t regulated. 12-year olds can buy gas. No one checks ID’s. Yet the incidence of firebombing murders is quite low, and no one has to fill out a 4473 just in case they might have a criminal background.

Here’s the plans to build a fully automatic open-bolt machinegun featured in this thread on THR. It’s not like it is complicated, or hard to make. How many machine guns deaths are there a year in the US? Do terrorists here refrain from making them because its illegal??

Just because we’re used to being frightened, doesn’t mean that the world is really out to get us as often as is advertised. But that’s the problem: Once a law has been around for a bit, one starts to think that civilization might just go away if the law did – and it’s ever so much easier to advocate only careful, cautious, incremental, lengthy incursions into the concept of freedom, lest freedom get “out of hand†and kill us all.

Does any sane person actually think that "terrible" things would happen if 6 year olds could walk into Walmart and buy a silencer? Then why isn't it legal?

Dex }:>=-
 
I honestly don't think society and people in general have really changed all that much over the recent span of time, and, as has been already noted, the technological genie is out of the bottle, especially in regards to explosives.

If people want to make home-built guns, bombs, poisons, etc., it's already QUITE possible, they just don't do it, with a few exceptions. It's even more possible nowadays with resources such as the Internet, which, I believe, puts a big dent in the "people were different back then" argument.

(Obviously, this is because of the fine people at the BATFE and their savvy crime-fighting ways. And it's illegal, don't you know? People who blow up things would never even think about breaking the laws regarding manufacture/possession of explosives.)
 
Well let me put my opinions out there and let people flame me, or at least try and convince me I'm wrong.

There are a lot of violent criminals who are repeat offenders. I don't think we have a definate way of determining who will commit a violent crime again and who won't. I think leaving them locked up is unreasonable, but I don't think allowing them to purchase a firearm is reasonable either. However, I would only restrict those convicted of violent felonies, and only maintain the restriction for a limited number of years.

When I was growing up in western Pensylvania kids often learned to hunt and use firearms safely before the age of 10. I thik they estimate there are a million hunters in the woods of PA on the first day of deer season, yet hunting accidents are extremely rare. However, some of that is because younger children are supervised by adults.

I don't think there is a good reason to allow children to carry guns unsupervised outside of private property where they have permission to do so by the owner. If they are on private property and the owner is aware they are carrying the guns and knows that they are responsible and safe, then the government should keep out of it.

Fully automatic weapons fall into a different category than semi-auto firearms in my opinion. In highly populated areas the danger that innocent bystanders will be injured or killed by someone using a fully automatic weapon in self defense is simply too high. I think that municipalities should be able to restrict how they are used and carried. I don't think they should be allowed to ban them.

Explosives are also another category. I've been involved in the legal use of explosives a couple times. They have legitamate private uses. However, there is an increasing problem in the world with people who are willing to blow up innocent people to make a point.

It's very hard for these people to be tracked down before they slaugther innocent people if the government doesn't have some ability to control the distribution of high explosives. Requirements for safe storage of high explosives are also very important.

However, this always comes back to the 2nd ammendment, which pretty clearly states that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Many of the suggestions I made would definately infringe upon that in some way. Our legislature doesn't have the right or authority to make laws that contridict the constitution. Our judicary doesn't have the authority to keep reinterpreting the constitition to match their current opinions. Therefore the only way to make such restrictions legal would be a constitutional ammendment.

Getting a constitutional ammendment ratified is a long process, and requires enough people agree to it that the usuall political lies and scare tactics don't work as well. However, that's the only way the constitution can be changed, and the constitution is clear on the subject.
 
Ugh. You seem to forget that common sense aint common. And 58 years ago people werent blowing up restaruants and shooting people because they didnt get their way.

They most certainly were.

In addition to the political movements Zundfolge mentions, I have read reports of angry farmers blowing up schools because they didn't like the teachers, blood feuds between neighbors, etc. For as long as man as been on this earth, they have been killing each other over silly things.

Chris
 
I don't really agree with everything. I personally don't think just anyone should be able to buy a rocket launcher or machinegun.

What I feel, is that there should be no restrictions on anything that isn't a machinegun, and for machinguns have the same thing we have for all guns right now, IE produce ID and get a quick background check done.

As for explosives, I think that there should be a requirement of absolutely no criminal record, excepting non-violent misdemeanors, and a background check with both state and federal databanks.

I also agree with Vermont-style carry, IE just shoving a gun into your pocket or a holster or something without the need for a license, except for children younger than 16. I also don't think anyone younger than 18 should be able to possess a firearm in a court or primary school.
 
I don't get the machinegun thing. Why is a machine gun considered that much more dangerous than your standard semi-auto? Especially amongst us knowledgeable gun-owners here on THR. I think a lot of people here have been watching too many movies.

Rick
 
I think that anyone in favor of reasonable restrictions on anything is kind of missing the point that is hammered home so frequently here. Gun control doesn't work. It only matters to people who aren't willing to break the law. Dynamite control is the same. Machine-gun control only keeps law-abiding citizens from having them. If you're willing to ignore a law, anything can be had for a price. Bombs, tanks, whatever. There is no sense in regulating any of it.

Just my 2 bits.

-drew
 
MoparMike: For a pretty low price I can buy a 275 gallon (or more) gas/diesel/kerosene tank that people in remote locations use for their house or farm. I can have fuel delivered for a low cost, or fill it myself at a gas pump. The explosive potential of that much fuel is incredible, and legal. If people can be trusted with a pickup full of fuel, they can be trusted with normal explosives. In South Dakota I have seen kids under 8 using fireworks that people like me in Minnesota only dream of buying, or cross the boarder to get.

TallPine: I think that is an argument for subsidizing video cameras, and handing them out to the poor, not regulating them. :neener:

Note: Dustin Doyle is against government subsides.
 
It's understandable (but not excusable) that people forget how to be responsible when they've been sheltered from that responsibility by big gov't all their lives.
 
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