why do I suck at reloading .38 special?

[1KPerDay]

I keep reading about how guys can shoot 2 inch groups at 25 yards with their Model 10 snubbies or Model 36/37s... I've tried red dot, Bullseye, Trail Boss, HP-38, and Herco; I've tried 158 LRN (old Merkell) and Speer 146 Bevel Base WC (with crimp groove) and Merkell 148 WCs (also with crimp groove). I've tried Berry's 148 HBWC... I've tried seating flush, seating to groove, crimping firm, crimping light, no crimp...

And I can't get my M37 or M10 to group worth a darn.

I would blame the guns but I tried some Speer Gold dot 125 +P this morning (got about a 3 inch group at 7 yards which is about the best I'm getting with my reloads) and then Buffalo Bore item 20C (heavy short barrel non plus P 158 LSWHP)... which printed a 1-inch group right on the bullseye out of my Model 10.

Do I just need to buy some better quality bullets? Do I just suck at shooting revolvers? When I loaded the 158LRNs I seem to remember being able to hit 8-inch plates at 18 yards every time, standing, with my snubs, same results with the WC loads with Bullseye... but this last outing I was only hitting approximately half of the time.

I painted a torso target fresh and held center for a few shots, and it seemed I was hitting high and right with the M10 (though it prints center at 7 yards)... so I held low and left on the plates and didn't do any better.

I could hit every time with my 6-inch barreled Officer's Model Target .38, with my reloads... so maybe I just don't do well with the sights/trigger on the Smiths?

But then I was able to do that really nice group with the BB ammo...

Just feeling frustrated is all.:banghead:

I usually don't shoot paper other than to get a good idea of general accuracy of a given load, and then I mostly shoot steel plates. If I hit the plates it's good enough for me. But if I don't.... it ain't.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Are you testing the guns in a rest? If not then you yourself could be having a little problem as opposed to the gun/ammo combo.

 

[silicosys4]

Just some advice based on my recent experiences....

Look at your velocity and charge weights.
My experiences were that different bullets wanted different velocities.
158 gr. LRN wanted to be loaded hot through my guns, about 850fps, but Wadcutters wanted to be more in the 700-750fps range. Pushing the LRN's too slow or the wadcutters too fast gave poor results.
Also check your crimp, my wadcutter loads shot best when given just enough crimp to chamber easily.
Also, there is a chance that your brass might be swaging your lead bullets down as you seat as well, if you don't have an expander.

 

[Rule3]

You have "read" about people shooting 2" groups at 25 yards. Have you actually seen it?

Snubs are not easy guns to shoot well at long distance (I consider 25 yards long for a 2" barrel)

As mentioned try from a rest to eliminate as much of the human factor.

Try the Jerry Miculek Grip for the small frame guns. It shows it here but there is a video out there also. Scroll down 2nd from the bottom.

http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/MICULEK2/miculek2.html

 

[1KPerDay]

I've been shooting seated at a table, from an improvised rest (stacks of ammo boxes, or similar). A professional rest or bags would certainly be an improvement. I'll work on getting one.

Also I haven't been trimming cases (I neglected to mention). It's such a pain with my rifle brass (and I get really good accuracy out of 9/40/45 auto without trimming) that I haven't bothered with .38s. That may be a factor, right?

The 2" group thing is based primarily on what some users here have posted, with pics (estimations based on my memory). I'm not really looking for 2" at 25 yards... just "as good as factory" accuracy would be fine with me. I've been able to come up with handloads in 9/40/45 that have exceeded factory ammo in accuracy, but it has eluded me in .38 (and .380) so far.

 

[KansasSasquatch]

Trimming your brass would probably help a little if you're putting a roll crimp in them. I love 3.3gr Red Dot, 158gr MBC LSWC, COL of 1.45" which should allow you to put a medium roll crimp right in the middle of the groove on that bullet if you properly trim your brass. LSWC bullets definitely shoot better for me than anything else I've loaded in .38spl but I haven't tried wadcutters yet at all. That load shoots great out of a 2" Ruger SP101 and a 4" Ruger GP100, both are relatively heavy stainless guns but with much different triggers and sights.

 

[1KPerDay]

Thanks. I think I pretty much need to start from scratch. The wadcutters I'm using are weird and pretty much nobody makes them anymore.

I haven't tried the MBC RN bullets I got in a trade yet... maybe they'll magically turn me into a better reloader/shooter.

 

[floydster]

Seeing is believing, anyone can post amazing shooting, I have been at the game 65 years and haven't seen anyone consistently shoot a 2" group at 25 yards with a snub nose revolver yet, oh, wait, there was one time--it was a one shot group
So don't feel bad, 99% of the great bragging shooting is bull--the other 1% I would have to witness to believe.

 

[243winxb]

I could hit every time with my 6-inch barreled Officer's Model Target .38, with my reloads... so maybe I just don't do well with the sights/trigger on the Smiths?

The sight radius (The distance between the rear sight and the front sight) is the key factor most times. Longer being better. Internet groups are always smaller than in real life. We only remember the tiny groups & forget the large ones.

 

[Dr_B]

2" groups at 25 yards is not really a benchmark anyone should use to assess a snubbie revolver, in my opinion, unless you are just doing it for the heck of it. Small groups like that are not practical under the conditions for which a snubbie was designed. Accuracy at 7 yards or closer is all you need to be concerned with. Yes, you can try it for fun at longer distances. I think it is useless to worry too much about accuracy at long distances.

 

[Rule3]

I doubt trimming of handgun brass will show much difference. I also do not think it is you or your loads. ( I have yet to trim any caliber handgun) If you are going to get that precise, than a 2" gun is not the launching platform to be using.

The big thing with short barrel shooting IMHO is the trigger. If shooting single action not so much but DA the gun and shooting angle can get pulled ever so slightly and there goes your shot.

Perhaps at least use the same headstamp for brass and stick with the proven loads of BE or HP38. I like the 158gr LSWC (MBC soft alloy) but that is just me.

Don't feel bad, I can't shoot a snub worth a darn either and I shoot a lot.
My 4" M 67 is a a whole different animal.

 

[Slamfire]

Who ever said shooting a pistol was easy?

If you really want to know how accurate your loads and the revolver, you need a ransom rest.

At least, before you win your first Bullseye Championship at Camp Perry. Till then, expect to shoot at least 250,000 rounds in practice.

 

[witchhunter]

Look at your crimp and your bullets, and your barrel. You may have a badly leaded barrel. Does your gun shoot factory ammo accurately? If so, try to match that ammo with your reloads. For example, if your gun shoots 158 hp's well, load some 158 hp's. Also, concentrate on one gun at a time. Shoot all of your test loads at the same range from the same gun. Oh, and I wouldn't believe everything you hear. At the range, a guy came over and was bragging about his new rifle that just shot several 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards. I looked at his target, it was a leupold sight in target. inch and a half groups! I lazered it at 71 yards.....Just sayin'

 

[readyeddy]

In my experience, accurate loads result from uniform components and 3/4 loads (halfway between mid and max).

Weigh your brass, bullets and charges. Load in lots of uniform components.

If this is done correctly, then your ammo should be identical in dimensions and performance.

 

[loose noose]

oneKperday, like just about everybody else stated I wouldn't put to much credibility into the 2" group at 25 yards with a snubbie. I've got a Colt Detective special that we put in a ransom rest, at the range where I was a police officer. The best it would do at 25 yards was just a bit under 3" with a 125 grn jacketed round, now mind ya that was in a ransom rest. I shot it afterwards using a sandbag rest single action, and the best I could get was a 5" group off to the right if I remember right. If your hitting center of mass at 7 yards be happy.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

What are your charge weights and bullets when using HP-38? BTW, I have never trimmed a .38 Special case in my life and don't think I ever will.

My 2 favorite .38 Special loads which I find to be very accurate are:
Mixed brass
CCI-500 primer
158gr LSWC bullet
4.0gr W231/HP-38
Light crimp in groove

Mixed brass
CCI-500 primer
148gr DEWC bullet
3.5gr W231/HP-38
Very light crimp in groove
I know there are other good powders out there for the .38 Special but I really like W231 best.

I can shoot 2" groups @15 yards but not @25 yards and I don't most can. I'm sure there are those who can but I'm not one of them, probably because I can't see worth a crap these days with my old eyes.

 

[Salmoneye]

What size are your boolits?

You generally want your lead to match your throats, and be .001"-.002" over groove diameter...

Just a thought...

 

[Zeke/PA]

"Two inch groups at 25 yards" ? From a snubbie yet? I gotta see that.
My top two .38"s are a 4 inch Smith 686 and a 6 inch K-38 full target.
From rest, I can do about 3.5 inches at 25 yds. shooting mostly Missouri Bullet 158 Gr. Semi-Wadcutters.
From MY Snubbie, a Smith 638 I shoot mostly a 7to 10 yds. at a silohette target and am very happy, shooting double action of course, to keep the shots in the chest area.

 

[mdm]

The .38 was my assigned weapon for several years in the Army. If the noise of the rounds didn't scare the enemy away my plan was to throw the empty revolver like a rock and hopefully find a big stick nearby.

 

[1KPerDay]

What are your charge weights and bullets when using HP-38?

The only bullets I've loaded are Merkell 158 LRN (3.7-3.8 HP-38 worked pretty well) and Merkell 148 and speer 148 BBWCs (the now-defunct shorter ones that you seat to the crimp groove, and NOT the longer DEWC or HBWC which require seating deep and lighter charges). The WCs I found 3.0 BE was okay, and 3.7 HP-38 was okay. I tried Red Dot also; can't remember the charges (I'd have to look them up) but I never found a load with those that was acceptably accurate in all of my revolvers.

This week I've been loading Berry's plated HBWC for the first time, and seating them to 1.26" (about 1/4" or so of the bullet exposed) and a light crimp. Lower charges (recommended charges for LEAD HBWCs seated flush) are horribly inaccurate, but this morning I found a fairly reasonably accurate HP-38 load for them that feels good and prints to point of aim... I got about 1.5" groups at 10 yards and about 3" groups with my M10 at 17 yards, which is better than any other charge I tried with these.

I won't post it because there's no real data for these plated HBWCs other than "use lead data" but suffice it to say IME the higher you go the more accurate they are; perhaps they take more pressure to spread the HB to effectively engage the rifling or something. In any case, I found a load that will probably be okay for plinking at plates at 18 yards and doesn't show any signs of excessive pressure.

The only reason I mention trimming is my mixed brass is quite varied in length. I suppose if I bothered to sort by headstamp I could probably come up with batches that were similar in length. But as it stands, some get a light crimp and some just get the mouth straightened out.

I just really hate prepping brass. I have a lot of small kids and no time to do anything so I have to be expeditious in all activities.

 

[balderclev]

My, I can't hit 2" at 10 yds with a 6" barrel.

 

[HighExpert]

My experience says light bullets and fast velocity in a 2in. I would think 110-125gr moving about 800-900fps would work with most. It also depends on bullet diameter vs. bore diameter. All that being said, I spent an extra $200 on a $1500 .45 just so it would shoot inside an inch at 25yds and inside 1 and a half at 50yds. Why would think an out of the box gun with a 2in barrel would even get close. If it hits a half size sillouette at 10 yds you need to cheer and treat the gun nicely. Snubs are not designed to shoot at 25yds and if you ever use one for self defense at that distance you will "have some splaining to do"

 

[GLOOB]

Sounds like all your reloads are with cast bullets. Try some jacketed handloads and see if those shoot.

Several reasons your cast reloads might not shoot well. Basically, most of them boil down to the bullet being too small compared to the bore. Well, even more specifically, it's the bullet being too small compared to the MUZZLE diameter. Let's call this rule #1 of shooting cast bullets. So...

1. Case: I have had many 38 special cases that couldn't seat a wadcutter, properly. The brass was too thick to seat a bullet that deep without squishing the base, thereby breaking rule #1.

2. Expanding the cases, properly. If you do not expand a case deep enough, it can swage the base of a cast bullet, thus breaking rule #1.

3. Throats: if the cylinder throat is too tight, it can swage down the bullet smaller than the muzzle diameter, thus breaking rule #1.

4. If there's a constriction where the barrel is screwed into the frame, just beyond the forcing cone, this will swage down the bullet, breaking rule #1.

5. Your cast bullets might have been sized too small for your gun's bores from the start, thus breaking rule #1. Most people start here, but in my opinion it's rarely the problem in 357, specifically. This happens sometimes in 9mm.

My quick and easy test to see if I have a rule #1 issue is to back out all the way to 100 yards, or so. If you have a rule #1 issue, the bullets will spray wildly in a 10+ yard circle.

 

[788Ham]

The first load Arch shows is the exact same load I shoot in my .38. This is the most accurate load I've ever shot. I was at the range yesterday, shot the best yet with this load, makes other shooters think you've got something they don't !