Why do some people want to directly elect presidents?

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Most people, it seems to me, don't understand the purpose of the electoral college. According to the original design of our Federal Government, there were two legitimate interests, according to the Founders, that needed representation in it. Firstly, there was that of the people. Their interests were represented by their elected Representatives in the House. Their districts were small, so it would be easy for their constituents to influence them in their roles as the people's representatives in the newly established Federal Government.

Then the States themselves, as sovereign entities, needed representation in the Federal Government. Their legitimate interest was to hold the Federal Government to its Constitutionally delegated powers, and prevent the usurpation of powers belonging exclusively to the States, i.e., all powers not delegated by the States, via the actual words of the Constitution, to the Federal Government (The clear implication being that all governmental authority originated in the States - which in turn derived directly from the people - and was then partially delegated by the States, as sovereign entities - to the new Federal Government). That was the job of the Senators.

Senators didn't represent the people, per se, so you only needed two per State, regardless of population size. Each State, no matter its size, needed the same amount of Senators because they were each deemed equal with respect to being sovereign States (i.e., regardless of population size, no one State was any more a sovereign State than another, so equal representation was provided for in the Senate, which was the representative body of the State governments). Senators were typically nominated by their State governors and then, by requirement of the Constitution, voted into office by their State legislature. Generally they took direction from their State governors and legislatures, not the people of the State, since they did not represent the interests of individual citizens, but those of their State, as a sovereign entity.

As for the president, he was not a representative of anyone, unless you wanted to say he was the representative of the will of Congress. His job was merely to execute the laws made by the Representatives and the Senators in Congress, so it was not thought important that the people, or the State legislatures, should be able to vote directly for him. They pretty much left it up to the State legislatures to decide how his electors were chosen. The only thing the Constitution demands in this regard is that State electors (who ultimately elect the president) equal the number of congressional districts, plus two for each State. There is not even a requirement that you, as an individual voter, get to state your preference for either electors or president.

You see, presidents are not supposed to make policy, so their job is not important in the sense that it would require that he be directly answerable to the people in elections. The policy makers were your Representatives and Senators, representing the interests of individual citizens and of State governments. Presidents didn't represent anyone's interest, other than perhaps, as previously stated, those of Senators and Representatives. You could have just as well had both houses of Congress elect the president, which was actually seriously considered by the Founders at one point.

The point is that under the Constitution, the president's job is merely to execute the laws, because it is too inefficient for a large body like Congress to do so, and they were only in session for a brief period per year for the purpose of making the laws and determining national policy. The really important folks in the Federal Government, except perhaps when our nation is under attack, are the Representatives and Senators. That's why we don't directly elect presidents. They are not meant to be our representatives, and have little Constitutionally authorized power to effect our daily lives. Our representatives as individual citizens were our Representatives in the House. States had Senators to look out for State interests. Any competent person was assumed to be able to execute the laws made by Congress, and presidents didn't establish our national policies, so it was not thought necessary for them to be directly elected.

The only reason people today want to directly elect the president is because the presidency has morphed into something the Constitution never intended. We have a super executive today, with the power to make war at a whim (for example), without even getting consent from the people's representatives in Congress. That being the case, we all want to be able to pick who this king-like super executive is going to be. The executive, however, needs to be put back in his Constitutional role. That's the answer. The answer is not to make him a super representative of the people via direct elections so as to match his usurped super executive powers.
 
It would take the current Senate situation and make it a nationwide problem. Currently large cities have an overwhelming effect on a few states- enough states to sometimes make up a national Democraticic majority. Make presidents popularly elected and you will take those dozen large liberal urban centers and give them control over teh whole country.

Do you really want Chicago, NYC, Boston, LA, SF and Detroit to pick your presidents for you?

And I totally agree that the state legislatures should pick the electors (not to mention the Senators). This will get rid of a lot of the populist rabblerousing that Senators have to do to get elected. This was one of the best things about our system 100 years ago.
 
You seem to view the Constitution as the product of some deep understand that the Framers had on how a government should be.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The US Constitution is a document composed entirely of compromises. At the time it was created no one like the end result. It’s a miracle that it was ever ratified.

The electoral college was simply a compromise between the people that wanted directly election of the president, and those that wanted the president to be appointed by Congress. There was no grand view...there was simply a desire to get by an impasse.

As for the president, he was not a representative of anyone
Again, nothing could be further from the truth. Having veto power, as defined in the Constitution, the President casts the last approving vote on any legislation that comes before him. In that respect, he is a representative of the entire country, and as such, should be elected directly by the people he represents.
 
It's surprising how many people assert that we live in a democracy. Some of these people actually hold elected office. Most of them I think were abandoned by their biological fathers in childhood and consider the President their own personal father figure.

Agreed that the POTUS is the chief executive officer, and his job is only to execute or carry out the laws of the land as made by the congress. Government overall is too big, too powerful and has too much of our money, with no reduction in sight as long as the double headed hydra known as DemocratRepublican remains in power.
 
It was a lot less corrupt than our current system. At least the Senators were representing the states they came from, rather than putting on a show for the voters every 6 years and legislating for the whole country. It is a lot harder to snow the state politicians than it is to snow the residents of say... Miami.
 
The title of the thread you post is:
Why do some people want to directly elect presidents?
And your first line is:
Most people, it seems to me, don't understand the purpose of the electoral college.
I believe that is referred to as begging the question.

At any rate you just answered your own question.

Plus, as R.H.Lee said:
It's surprising how many people assert that we live in a democracy.
That is what gets drilled into our heads from youth, unless we really pay attention in PolySci class.

Personally I am not ready to abandon the electoral college, but I wish the states weren't all or nothing.
 
Ditto what beerslurpy said. The current system of government fulfills the corruption requirement nicely. Careers politicians, gerrymandering, campaign finance reform, the revolving door between government and so called 'private enterprise', the list goes on and on.
 
It was a lot less corrupt than our current system.
Rich business men were purchasing senate seats in order to affect legislation to their favor. THAT was less corrupt than what we have today?? As least now, senators and their dealings are more public, and the people can remove a really bad senator on the next election. That wasn’t possible with the original system.
 
Graystar, it was indeed the product of compromise, but the result was inspired, in my opinion. And, yes, the president does have veto power, which is a power to resist the will of Congress, but not to overcome it. Congress can legislate without any concern for the wishes of the president, so long as there are enough of our and "the State's" representatives that agree on something. I put "the State's" in quotes, because the States no longer have any representation in the Federal Government, thanks to the Seventeenth Amendment. Odd that the Seventeenth Amendment didn't require that the number of Senators reflect State populations like Representatives do. It really makes no sense at all the way it works now. It's as if States, as sovereign entities, were just done away with in our system. They might as well have just abolished the Senate in 1913.
 
The dumb ones--and they are legion--don't have a clue about the structure or history of this country. They don't know, really, that this nation is called The United States of America for a reason. They don't care either. They are more concerned about Brad and Angelina and Desperate Housewives.

The smart ones know that "direct elections" means the big cities, with all that implies, will dominate American politics and ensure the steady advance of socialism.
 
It's bad enough that we have states rigging elections by allowing dead people to "vote", allowing people to vote more than once, etc., to ensure that state's electors vote a for their party.

Can you imagine how blatant it will get if the popular vote directly elects the president ? Some states will be presenting voting numbers greater than those state's populations.
 
Can you imagine how blatant it will get if the popular vote directly elects the president ?
Well, at the moment popular vote DOES determine the choice of president for each state. So how will a direct popular vote be any different?

The Electoral College does NOT work today in any way shape or form as it was envisioned more than 200 years ago.
 
It's different because presently a state can't influence the election through voting fraud beyond the number of their electors. If, for example, California claims that their count shows 25,000,000 D votes and only 5,000,000 P votes when in fact the count was 17,500,000 and 12,500,000, the extra 7.5 million votes they report will turn the election.
 
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...which is a power to resist the will of Congress
On who’s behalf? Why should the president possess such a power.

I put "the State's" in quotes, because the States no longer have any representation in the Federal Government,
"of the people, by the people, for the people...”
Abraham Lincoln

The states and the people are one and the same.

The house represents the people on an apportionment level...the senate represents the people on a state level. It makes sense that the people should select both levels of representation. The people of the states are fully represented...therefore the states are fully represented. Without the people, there are no states.
 
Its funny, a friend who is a liberal and lives in Cali, wants a direct popular vote for the president, I dont. The Electoral college, flawed yes, better than a direct vote. I suggested to my friend in cali that we should have a state level electoral college for state elections and such, he freaked. Wonder why.

I dont want LA, NY or other liberal, left wing sess pools electing the president.
 
Silver Bullet presents an excellent point.

Part of my five-step plan for restoring our republic is the abolishment of the 17th Amendment. As has been said earlier in the thread, the Senate is supposed to represent the States as entities, not the people directly. Rich people still regularly buy seats, so what has the change improved?

(The other steps are off-topic for the thread, but fwiw: end the war on drugs, end the direct federal income tax, return to a policy of non-intervention in world affairs, and make space exploration and colonization a national priority. If anyone wants to debate those feel free to start a new thread. ;) )
 
------quote---------------
You seem to view the Constitution as the product of some deep understand that the Framers had on how a government should be.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The US Constitution is a document composed entirely of compromises. At the time it was created no one like the end result. It’s a miracle that it was ever ratified.
--------------------------

Where did we get this idea that compromise is incompatible with design genius? Every design - and especially every brilliant design - is "composed entirely of compromises."

Let's take an example close to heart: Browning's 1911. He could have made it a lot more powerful - perhaps chambering it for a .50 caliber 350 grain 1700 fps projectile. But that would have made the thing too big and heavy and unmanageable. He could have chambered it in .22 LR, thereby gaining a potentially huge magazine capacity, decreasing the overall size and weight, and improving accuracy for most shooters. But that would have resulted in an unacceptable decrease in stopping power. So, therefore, he compromised and wound up with .45 ACP - as it turned out, a great compromise.

Any kind of design project involves choices between contrary or opposing elements. Balancing these factors - "compromising" - is what designers do, whether you are talking about a racing car, a pistol, or a constitutional government.
 
California claims that their count shows 25,000,000 D and only 5,000,000 votes when in fact the count was 17,500,000 and 12,500,000,
Are you saying that the 25 mil was Cali’s officially declared count? Where did the other numbers come from? Is there a link to this story anywhere?
 
I agree with the five step plan. Well, all but the last one, which I neither agree with nor particularly disagree with. Just haven't given it much thought, except in terms of sci fi. No particular objection, though. Sounds like it would be neat to do. What about getting rid of the welfare state and securing the boarders?
 
Are you saying that the 25 mil was Cali’s officially declared count? Where did the other numbers come from? Is there a link to this story anywhere?
I'm giving a numerical example how going to a popular vote can lead to bigger voting fraud abuses than with the electoral system.
 
It's different because presently a state can't influence the election through voting fraud beyond the number of their electors. If, for example, California claims that their count shows 25,000,000 D and only 5,000,000 votes when in fact the count was 17,500,000 and 12,500,000, the extra 7.5 million votes they report will turn the election.
Doesn’t matter. The number of electors is equal to two plus the number of reps a state has, so electoral apportionment is roughly equal to population differences. All of Cali’s electors went for Kerry, as if 30,000,000 had voted for him. That's better??
 
Doesn’t matter. The number of electors is equal to two plus the number of reps a state has, so electoral apportionment is roughly equal to population differences. All of Cali’s electors went for Kerry, as if 30,000,000 had voted for him. That's better??

Yes, because the number of electors is more proportional among the states than the level of population. The numerical advantage of the higher population is reduced by the electoral formula.

Without the electoral system, smaller states would not have the possibility of being the pivotal votes. The candidates would simply fight over NY, FL, CA, and TX. The majority of other states would be ignored.
 
I consider direct election of senators to be one of the worse mistakes we have made. In moving to popular election at the state level we set the stage for an upper and lower house of congress. What we lost is direct representation of the state's interests in what the federal government does.

I don't buy for one minute the equation of people and state. A consistent complaint state officials have about the federales is the US congress passes unfunded mandates. Congress writes the law and forces the state to figure a way to pay for it. Medicaid is a good example along with a ton of environmental legislation. If we had state election of senators unfunded mandates would simply disappear. Like it on not, senators are humans and ultimately pay attention to their paychecks. Make senators employees of their states. Let the state set the salary, write the pension plan, pay their medical costs, pay for office expenses, set staffing levels. In other words shift the locus of power in the senate back to the state. Then sit and watch the sudden change in the nature of legislation acted on by congress.

I think we could easily repeal the 17th amendment and suffer zero ill effects.
 
The way to make the system better is to do away with the winner take all system iwhere in most states the winner of the popular vote in state gets all the electoral votes.

If each elector had to vote the way his or her congressional district voted it would stop the large urban areas from controlling the way many states vote and would end this BS of battleground states. Candidates would have to actually campaign nationwide....

Jeff
 
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