Why do we still buy their oil and their heroin?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Otherguy is right, there is no way to replace oil with biodiesel or ethanol, the sheer quantity of energy required is staggering, and the likelihood of being able to grow, harvest, and convert that much biomass sustainably is pretty remote.

Our only real alternative to oil is electricity produced by coal burning or nuclear fission (and maybe geothermal energy). Hydrogen fuel cells are just a relatively efficient way of storing that electricity, not a source of it.

Nuclear fission is far better for the environment than burning coal (if done properly, which is really not that difficult). Hopefully, the hippies will realize this in time to prevent a lot of pollution.

<edited to replace fusion with fission, where is my brain?>
 
Last edited:
Something doesn't compute.

Down here in the Ozarks I drive past veritable mountains of sawdust. Mountains of it just sitting there rotting and releasing their volitals (combustible gasses) out into the atmosphere.

You think we need corn? Shucks, (pun intended) biomass is anything that grows. Or grew.

We could be mining our landfills. Talk about clean streets.

JFK told us to put a man on the moon. Too hard? Too expensive? We did it anyway. Where there is a profit, there is a way.

Don't try to tell me that somebody can't figure out a way to separate Hydrogen from Carbon Monoxide. Besides that CO burns too.

We buy that foreign oil because there is a profit in it for somebody. Just not us.
 
Den Beste on bio-diesel and alternative energy

Try and read some of this link:

http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2002/09/Obscureenergysources.shtml

Other excellent commentary on power grids and energy:

http://denbeste.nu/cgi-bin/perlfect/search/search.pl?p=1&lang=en&mode=all&q=power+grid

and more on alternative energy here:

http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2002/09/Morepracticalproblems.shtml

All are well worth reading and Steven Den Beste does a really good job of explaining technical stuff... :)

BTW, friend, there's no hydrogen in CO (carbon monoxide). :what:
 
Don't try to tell me that somebody can't figure out a way to separate Hydrogen from Carbon Monoxide. Besides that CO burns too.
Sure we can seperate it, by using electricity. But, it's going to use more energy to free it than we can produce by burning it. Free hydrogen does not just occur naturally, sitting around waiting for us to suck it up like coal or oil.
 
Mr. Overby,

Thank you for calling me Friend even if it was just to point out that your comprehension skills may be on the same level as my lack of ability to descriptively write.

I said....
there is a chemical reaction of which I know nothing except that out the bottom comes

CO
and
H

maybe it's Hsub2 (how would I know?)
Anyways, it was my understanding that the Hydrogen Gas was present in a mixture with the CO. My understanding was that it was not bound to the CO in some kind of compound, thus there should be no electrolisis required.

Like I said, How would I know. Thank you for clarifying the matter. I will read up on your links and see if my feeble mind can understand what you were telling me.

Thanks again.

edited to add: Sorry Mr. Overby if I suggested that you were the guy who said electrolisis was required. It was Mr. Middy.

Also.......http://www.gengas.nu/byggbes/executive_summary.shtml
 
Mega coolness

cropcirclewalker Mr. Overby,

Thank you for calling me Friend even if it was just to point out that your comprehension skills may be on the same level as my lack of ability to descriptively write.

Wuzzat a compliment? I sure doesn't read like one, or maybe it just whizzed by over my head.

Anyways, it was my understanding that the Hydrogen Gas was present in a mixture with the CO. My understanding was that it was not bound to the CO in some kind of compound, thus there should be no electrolisis required.

Iff 'n there was hydrogen in CO, there'd be an H there... :)

CO: One carbon atom, one oxygen atom. Unstable
CO2: One carbon atom, two oxygen atoms. Stable
H20: Two Hydrogen atoms, one oxygen. Stable
H2O2 Two hydrogen atoms, two oxygen. Rocket fuel (German)

Add some chlorine or some sulfur to some of the above and you might come up with some nasty acids.

Thanks again.

edited to add: Sorry Mr. Overby if I suggested that you were the guy who said electrolisis was required. It was Mr. Middy.

Also.......http://www.gengas.nu/byggbes/executive_summary.shtml

Now that is intersting, I must have several hundred years of supply for wood gasification in my woods.... Thanks

BTW, I enjoy the majority of your posts.
 
Iff 'n there was hydrogen in CO, there'd be an H there...
By George, I think you've got it. :D

The piece I linked to says millions of vehicles were run in Europe during WWII by these things. (Wood Gas Generators) The gasses used to run the vehicles was a mixture of Hsub2 (Hydrogen gas), CO (Carbon Monoxide, no H present) (both of which are flammable) and Nitrogen (which is not). What I was trying to say (and apparently failed miserably at) was that iff'n one could figger a way to separate the Hydrogen from the CO and the N, then one could use that to power a fuel cell.

No energy is required to generate this mixture. The question is how to separate them.

Maybe since Hydrogen is lighter, they would naturally separate in a column. Who knows?

But whoever does could get rich.......Iff'n they didn't get kilt first. :uhoh:
 
I've read about these things quite a bit, and have a few comments. You can consider these 'informed opinions' of a non-industry export.

First, no one fuel is going to be the 'replacement' for gasoline. Heck, you think about it, the same oil is used to make kerosene, jet fuel, propane, gasoline, diesel, motor oil, etc... It's all just different cracks of the oil refinement process. We have three major engine fuels coming from the process. So Ethanol, bio-diesel, and electric all have a place in the future.

Second, the 'Hydrogen' economy is something of a joke. What many people don't realize is that hydrogen isn't just created or mined, the most efficient process for seperating it out of water involves a nuclear reactor, and that we'd have to cover most of Nevada to get enough solar power. It's also difficult to store or move. Ethanol fuel cells would actually be a better choice. Ethanol is safer than gasoline, and while it only has like 2/3 the energy of gasoline per gallon, burning it in a fuel cell would increase the efficiency such that you'd still get better mpg.

Third, I'd like to see us get away from coal power. It's dirty. I heard on the radio that living within 50 miles of a coal plant gives you the same chances for lung cancer as being a former smoker. Nasty. A nuclear plant, while it produces waste, doesn't really pollute unless you count raw heat in the water dump. On the other hand, this is also manytimes the best fishing spot. ;) Anyways, there are common sense disposal methods for nuclear waste that leaves it harmless. A few breeder reactors would have the benefit of turning all the waste currently sitting in pools around the USA into usable fuel again. As we've seen, terrorists are more interested in blowing civilians up the direct way rather than assaulting a power plant to get the materials to construct a dirty bomb.

Fourth, 'Alternative power sources'
Costal power is uneconomical: Way, Way too expensive to install, and maintanence is up there too.
Solar Power: Currently about 10x of nuclear, and that's using the steam tower model, which has all the maintenance requirements of running a steam plant, whether the boiler heat comes from coal, nuclear, or even solar. Direct panels still require maintenance in the form of motors to face the panels the right way or cleaning them off occasionally. The sheer amount of surface area needed for significant power makes this a real chore/expense. Oh, and it costs 100x per megawatt to run. Can be good for specific uses in more or less remote areas for low-power items like highway signs/blinkers. Oh, and it only provides efficient power during the day. There are equivalents to giant UPS units that they can use, but again, that costs money, takes maintenance, and isn't particularly efficient.

Wind: I've already heard some ecologists wailing about the effects of windfarms, and they require regular maintenance too. They don't provide steady power in most areas. End result is for a given amount of power, you generally need just as many workers as at a coal/nuclear plant.

Geothermal, Dam, etc: Nice, if you're lucky enough to live by one of the few suitable areas.

Fifth: Recycling. Most post-consumer recycling today takes more material/energy than using fresh materials. Part of this expense is generally the transportation of the stuff to the planet. Let the stuff sit in a landfill until we get the technology to make 'mining' those landfills profitable, even if it ends up just setting up a plant on site, and running it like a mine until the landfill is 'empty', then shutting down the plant for the next twenty or so years. A cheap, 'green' transportation system would help with this. I kinda like the idea of nuclear powered electric rail.
 
We have three major engine fuels coming from the process. So Ethanol, bio-diesel, and electric all have a place in the future.

Second, the 'Hydrogen' economy is something of a joke. What many people don't realize is that hydrogen isn't just created or mined, the most efficient process for seperating it out of water involves a nuclear reactor
I yam sorry, I yam just a dumb a$$ed citizen, but it is my understandiing that we are talking about 2 of the most available elements in the universe; carbon and hydrogen.

The carbon chain, essentially the root of organic life and hydrogen, which is contained in that which covers 2/3rds of the Earth surface.

Oxidation, which combines oxygen with these 2 is further mixed up in the process of life and, since I am just a dumb a$$ed civilian must be part of the chain of life.

Now you are telling me that we need a nuclear reactor to get H(2) out of water. I just showed in previous posts how it was possible to create elemental hydrogen (a gas, not a compound) out of ordinary organic matter without the introduction of other energy. We all know that Hydrogen is the preferred (based on current science, to my knowledge) fuel for the fuel cell, which has powered spacecrafts into God knows how far into space, and yet there was no atomic reactor aboard the Pioneer spacecraft.

I yam just so confused.

We spend so much money refurbishing the Hubble Telescope. Is there no research into the fuel cell?

We put men on the moon. Nobody came around to my door to deliver the Teflon that was a result. When do we reap the benefits of NASA's expenditures?
 
Otherguy is right, there is no way to replace oil with biodiesel or ethanol, the sheer quantity of energy required is staggering, and the likelihood of being able to grow, harvest, and convert that much biomass sustainably is pretty remote.

Actually, we CAN replace geo diesel with bio diesel. There are several things we have to do, though:

1. Convert to oil producing crops. Right now, we subsidize rice, for example, to the tune of billions of dollars a year -- two rice cooperatives in ONE county in Arkansas receive a hundred million a year. We grow so much rice that it's a drug on the market, and won't bring enough to pay for the cost of production. Stop subdizing what we don't need and motivate farmers to grow what we do need.

2. Put land into use. We have more crop land OUT of use (in the Crop Reserve Program) than we have IN use. Stop paying farmers not to produce.

3. Develop higher yield crops -- we can develop strains of soy beans, peanuts and so on that will produce much more oil than those currently grown.

4. Utilize more sources for oil -- we currently BURN an enormous amount of "trash" after harvesting. This "trash" can be used to produce oil.

5. Work on infrastructure. The biggest cost factor in bio diesel today is transportation costs. Bio diesel isn't widely available, and there is no good network to get it to where it's needed. We also lack high-capacity refineries to produce oil from vegetable matter.

6. Relax rules for bio diesel -- right now, all vegetable oil in this country has to meet human consumption standards. Oil refined for fuel is not going to be eaten, so we don't need to require such stringent standards.;
 
i dont believe it!!!

some of you actually believe it is possible to at least cut our oil imports, that some of this is feasible?
hooray!!

i will add from what i have read, seen on tv, and heard for my dad the engineer/ physics teacher - for now, hydrogen still takes more to produce than it outputs

but if real energy was devoted to biodiesel- we could put a real dent in imports.
besides corn , there are incredibly rapid growing algae that can economically provide the needed biomass grown in quantity.


BIGBIG PS- i drive a diesel, an old one. i know very well how bad the exhaust smells, especially when cold. you've all probably smelled that nasty stuff,. home heating oil is the same (exactly , with dye in it actually) =

ever been near a biosdiesel exhaust pipe? less than half the emissions, and it smells like french fries. really. not bad at all. all berkeley garbage and other large trucks run on it.

almost all biodiesel currently is being made from recycled, filtered WASTE cooking oil!!

oh yeah and pps=
jet fuel, diesel #2, home heating oil = ALL THE SAME STUFF. just different taxes and regs.
my first clue was the spike in diesel prices at 9-11 - which lasted exactly as long as the planes were grounded - AND confirmed by a tv show about alternatives for planes= the FAA only trusts diesel as it is all its been using since the begining. new fuels require endless testing for commercial use approval, theyre still working on it.

JP8= the military fuel- dollars to donuts (geez, almost equal these days)
slightly less refined diesel, which means diesle runs in em too.

home heating oil is diesel with dye= way lower taxes, dye is for DOT to be able to check- LOTS of people (im sure many of you know this) use home heating oil in equipt, and sometimes trucks. possibly slightly less refined, but ultimately the same.
quasi legal for offroad use, so for example one person has a pupm attached to
heater tank, uses it to fill bobcat skid loader
 
Now you are telling me that we need a nuclear reactor to get H(2) out of water. I just showed in previous posts how it was possible to create elemental hydrogen (a gas, not a compound) out of ordinary organic matter without the introduction of other energy.

eh, no.


The wood gasification makes sense if all you have is wood and solid fuel and need to produce something that will run a internal combustion engine, but otherwise isn't economically feasible. Remember, the Germans were desperately hurting for petroleum during WWII and went through equally desperate measures to keep things running.

How do you think that you can get oxygen starved combustion products out of wood without applying heat (energy) to burn the wood? That's right, you need to burn something else to heat it up in the enclosed vessel in which you are trying to trap the gasses. If you heat wood or any other organic material to very high temperatures, CO and H2 will be given off which can in turn be burned in an engine, but quite a bit of energy must be applied to get this gas out.

Another problem is that CO gas is highly toxic- would you want this stuff stored in a building, piped into your house, or stored in your car's fuel tank parked in the garage? It doesn't take much of it to kill you and there is no way you can physically detect a leak unless you have a sophisticated air sapler.
 
Do we not export almost all of the oil we get out of Alaska? Keep that for ourselves, cut the Middle Eastern countries off, and let the other nations export from them instead of selling ours.

Get people here in the US jobs instead of shipping them to China and Mexico, and our economy would be more than enough to sustain our oil companies.
 
Theone thing no one has mentioned...

is METHANOL...I mention this because I researched it heavily for a paper in college(1970s)...Can be made by fermentation (then distillation) from almost any organic waste...including manure, wood, etc. By products of combustion are CO2 and Water vapor as I recall... There were some farms, even back then, that had converted to producing and using methanol as a fuel for farm equipment....Produced from animal manure and crop by products...

Race cars have been using it as a fuel for years...relatively safe and easy to store (similar to gasoline)...Although you need twice as much to get same energy as you do with gasoline...

Now as mentioned, some other thing(plastics, etc.) are also made from crude oil, so this wouldn't negate the need for oil...BUT it would make a serious dent in our depedence on oil...
 
This is good stuff. It would definitely be EuroHacker Magazine-grade material, if you feel like writing some articles.
 
Now you are telling me that we need a nuclear reactor to get H(2) out of water. I just showed in previous posts how it was possible to create elemental hydrogen (a gas, not a compound) out of ordinary organic matter without the introduction of other energy.

eh, no. <snip> How do you think that you can get oxygen starved combustion products out of wood without applying heat (energy) to burn the wood? That's right, you need to burn something else to heat it up in the enclosed vessel in which you are trying to trap the gasses.
If you had looked at link I posted earlier you would not be posting the above....http://www.gengas.nu/byggbes/executive_summary.shtml

Then you said
Another problem is that CO gas is highly toxic- would you want this stuff stored in a building, piped into your house, or stored in your car's fuel tank parked in the garage? It doesn't take much of it to kill you and there is no way you can physically detect a leak unless you have a sophisticated air sapler.
I am befuddled. Maybe I fell into a parallel universe by mistake where gasoline, carbon dioxide, methanol, hexane ...et al are not toxic. Guess what? Many of them burn too.

If when JFK told us to put men on the moon and somebody would have said to him,

"But, Mr. President, outer space has no oxygen and will not support human life. We would have to devise a sophisticate air sampling system or otherwise it could be dangerous."

then maybe he would have said,

"Oh, sorry, I didn't know it would be hard, Never mind."
 
Thorn---------I am weird in that I LOVE the smell of diesel exhaust. Have since I was a child. My Mom is the same way. I think it is genetic. Kinda like people think different perfumes smell good or bad or like some peole really like the smell of gun oil. I also like the smell of kerosene. It reminds me of my childhood. Grandma sprickled the wood floor in her General Store to keep the dust down when she swept the floors. We children running around barefooted would have the blackest of soles. :evil:
 
I may be way off, but

that never stopped me before.

In the 1980's I worked as a draftsman/designer for a corporation that supplied packaged air separation plants to various industrial users. THere were several projects for coal gassification plants, hydrogen plants, etc, none of which seem to have survived the subsequent lowering of oil price, but the technology existed twenty years ago. But not the will.
Oil companies control a large part of US/ world politics. You will not see a cheap substitute for oil till the oil companies are ready to let you have one.
That photo of Bush and that bed sheeted pig was right on the money.


Mark
 
I am befuddled. Maybe I fell into a parallel universe by mistake where gasoline, carbon dioxide, methanol, hexane ...et al are not toxic. Guess what? Many of them burn too.

You are correct in your first sentence.

CO is nothing to fool around with. If hydrogen leaks, the worst that will happen is that it will burn or possibly explode in a confined space. Gasoline will do the same and could contaminate groundwater and add a little bit of VOCs to the air. CO will KILL you pretty fast and in low concentrations and you wouldn't even know its happening. Gasoline and its components are all toxic, but it doesn't evaporate fast enough in your garage to likely cause death to someone who breathes the fumes.
 
Back to the question a little more, shouldn't we be doing all that we can to find new fuels and minimise energy requirements?? Isn't it funny how we can build ICBMs and MIRVs and aircraft which are almost invisible to radar, but we havent escaped from the 100 year old internal combustion engine?
Oh, and Heroin? Spike the supplies with super pure batches. Scare or kill the users. We've done worse for lesser reasons.
 
Yes, Mr. Butt, you must be right

Messing around with CO is pretty dangerous. Colorless, odorless and flammable. That is way too dangerous to mess with. Sort of like natural gas.

Natural gas was easy because the distributor add a nasty smelling odor to it so that a leak could be discerned. Of course we couldn't do that to the wood gas generator because everyone could have one or two in their backyards, free from .gov control.

The .gov has to protect us.

I have a friend back in Kansas who has his very own gas well. It's like his own. He heats his house with it. I wonder how he has managed to get along for all these years without blowing up his house, since there is no odor in his natural gas.

Working up a technology like fer instance a CO detector built into a cell phone or PDA that sounds an alarm would be pretty hard too.

Besides almost nobody has a cell phone or PDA anyway.

Maybe we should just admit defeat and give up. Yeah, it'd be too hard.

Never mind.
 
CCW-
I happen to work in the chemical industry and have worked with some of the most toxic materials known to mankind. The one type of material that sticks out in my mind that I've worked with that required the most monitoring, containment, and training was carbon monoxide additions. People who work with the stuff take it as seriously as a heart attack. The detectors we use are flame ionization detectors which can detect down to about 5ppm and are the size of a tape recorder and cost about $2000. Every centimeter of a setup is tested, pressurized and checked for leaks before a CO cylinder is ever cracked open. Piping in homes is not tested so stringently- in fact I had a leaky weld last year on my air conditioning system that allowed all of my refridgerant to escape, I certainly wouldn't want that to happen with a tank of CO.

Now you can buy home CO detectors that are far less sensitive- if they go off, the CO level in the air is close to though not quite IDLH (Immediate Danger to Life and Health) conditions. These are usually put in basements to detect CO given off by a a faulty furnace or water heater. CO is heavier than air, so it will tend to settle in low lying areas rather than disperse. If you own a ranch home like millions of other homes in the US with the garage on the ground floor, you will have dangerous levels in your house before the detector in the basement will even go off.


All of this going round and round with you is also ignoring the big white elephant in the living room. It maybe dangerous to do, but even worse, its not economically or socially feasable. How do you think the public will react when President CropCircleWalker announces to the public that we will be starting a new energy program where all of the national forests will be clearcut and turned into forest farms to turn out a feul that creates alot of pollution in its making and costs 10X as much as natural gas?
 
Yes, Mr. Butt, you still may be right when you said

All of this going round and round with you is also ignoring the big white elephant in the living room. It maybe dangerous to do, but even worse, its not economically or socially feasable. How do you think the public will react when President CropCircleWalker announces to the public that we will be starting a new energy program where all of the national forests will be clearcut and turned into forest farms to turn out a feul that creates alot of pollution in its making and costs 10X as much as natural gas?
and yes, I am just a dumb a$$ed citizen. No I don't work in the Chemical Industry. (But CO is slightly lighter than air and generally is hot when created so lacking convection or other mixing propensities, it would tend to rise)

I was on the team that put the men on the moon. That is probably why I don't see this alternative fuel problem as being that hard to solve. CB radios used to be real expensive. Computers used to be unavailable. Who'da thunk 20 years ago that we'd all be walking around talking on communicators like the guys on "Star Trek"?

The real big elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about is how much are we really paying for our gasoiline. We see the price at the pump and think it's awful.

The real question is how much is .gov spending for us as a people in war materials and lives to protect and provide us with our "economically and socially feasable" fuel? How much is a soldiers life worth?
 
The real question is how much is .gov spending for us as a people in war materials and lives to protect and provide us with our "economically and socially feasable" fuel? How much is a soldiers life worth?

Why do you look to .gov to solve problems for you? BTW, they are already spending a princely sum of money trying to figure out fusian reactions and how to make them controllable. If you want an unlimited energy source, there it is, but the technology to make it happen doesn't come overnight. I'd put it several orders of magnitude more difficult than sending a few men in a tin can to the moon, as big of an achievement as it was.

Others have taken it upon themselves to figure out how to make deisel fuel out of french fry grease, so why not take it upon yourself to figure out how to get a good portable fuel source from wood? Its really low tech and something you could conceivably do in your backyard. If it works out, you and those working with you will become rich beyond your wildest dreams if you can solve the energy problem.

Oil is going to be used for our entire lifetimes and the lifetimes of our great great grandchildren for one reason alone- its cheap. If it were $500 a barrel it would still be relatively cheap. To produce it you merely have to find it and pump it out of the ground.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top