Why Double Ought?

[PlayMaker]

Just wondering why so many (military, police, you) advocate double ought? I know it's been there done that but I'm just curious what's the big difference between the next up or down that makes so many advocate 00?

 

[Hungry Seagull]

I have slugs. They must be aimed at center mass. My weapons have several target assist in addition to iron sights, beads etc. Laser dot, reflex sight dot etc.

Double ought can do the same job Slugs can do in typical home defense ranges. I have triple ought as my first experiment to be a alternative to slugs. When I am cleared to shoot after lens arrive, I will experiement with triple aught.

Double OO is very good against humans and dogs, you dont really have to aim TOO much, just enough to get the job done.

My mindset tends to be a knuckle dragger to the extreme. When ammuntion double aught is good enough for dogs back home, I want triple aught in case of BEARS... BIG bears....

My expectations of triple aught is to deliver almost the same energy into center of target without seeing that target's spine going through the side wall of my home and splashing back two inches of gore onto me at 12 feet.

My problem is that the designated kill area has a water heater to the left of it., frankly considering the damage that will be done with a home invasion done proper against my home, I dont give a &^% about that water heater on the other side of two layers of drywall.

The wife at her refuge room will be firing slugs down that hall and she can use the iron sights on her mossy much better than that fancy techno laser stuff. She was taught to shoot USMC and knows how to make corrections to put rounds on target.

Think about triple aught as 8 .40 or .45 caliber bullets stuffed into a shotgun shell. Then think about my very short 18 inch barrel with the Improve choke. My range is less than 20 feet before the spread gets too wild.

Not too many wives I know are able to do this. Maybe one is enough

 

[C-grunt]

9 roughly .35 caliber pellets is a pretty potent package. I cant tell you why triple aught isnt more popular though. Its probably because the 00 gives you a good balance of size and numbers,

 

[Badger Arms]

It stacks perfectly in rows of three inside a 12ga shell. That's why the standard load is 9-pellet. 2 3/4" Magnum loads are 12-pellet. 3" magnum is 15-pellet. 3 1/2" magnum is 18 pellet. See a trend?

00 buck also penetrates well dumping all of its energy in a torso shot. 000 would do a good job as well, but won't stack well in a 12ga shell. Same thing with smaller shot.

 

[Kansan]

I'm happy to hear all of this positive coverage of 00 buckshot because I went to my local Big 5 tonight and there was absolutely no handgun ammo or buckshot, except for a single lonely box of Fiochi 00 Buckshot. Naturally, I couldn't resist. Having read this post, I'm now confident that my precious 10 shells will take care of the first wave of zombies.

 

[Ned Kelly]

slugs are easy to find right now as well.

 

[Sunray]

"...makes so many advocate 00?..." It sounds mean. Buck shot, on game, past 20 yards is mostly useless. Not enough pellets for a clean kill on game.
"...See a trend?..." A 3" mag load of #4 Buck has 41 6mm pellets and it's not accurate enough to hunt anything.
"...9 roughly .35 caliber pellets is a pretty potent package..." .33" and not accurate enough.

 

[Badger Arms]

"...makes so many advocate 00?..." It sounds mean. Buck shot, on game, past 20 yards is mostly useless. Not enough pellets for a clean kill on game.
"...See a trend?..." A 3" mag load of #4 Buck has 41 6mm pellets and it's not accurate enough to hunt anything.
"...9 roughly .35 caliber pellets is a pretty potent package..." .33" and not accurate enough.

What are you talking about? Buckshot is not accurate nor is any shot. It patterns and patterns are based on the choke, not the shot SIZE. Are you kidding here or do you really think you can't make a clean kill on game past 20 yards?

 

[Youngster]

Just wondering why so many (military, police, you) advocate double ought? I know it's been there done that but I'm just curious what's the big difference between the next up or down that makes so many advocate 00?

IIRC, 00 first became somewhat of a standard when it was chosen by Wells Fargo bank for use in their stage coach guns in the second half of the 19th century, the American Expeditionary force's choice of 00 for use in their Winchester '97s in WW1 probably cemented that status.

It would be tough to find another loading in the firearms world with as long and as effective a track record as 00 buck, though some of us prefer other buckshot sizes {when we can get them}.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

I had a chance to buy Buck and Ball ammuntion, or aka "Buckyballs" and those are very destructive.

Basically it's a bunch of little doggies driven with a wad by bad big dog or two pushed by magnum charge. The little doggies hit first make small holes and big papa smashes through without resistance.

First used in the civil war I believe. For destruction against humans I know nothing equivilant. I hear stories of one small unit in line of battle able to mow down three ranks of infantry advancing against them with this ammuntion for a time...

But to use that stuff in Home Defense will probably not go over well with the courts when they find out just what was used in the defensive weapon LOLZ /sarcasm.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Buck and Ball rounds have been used since the time of Roger's Rangers, and they probably weren't the first. They would regularly add a half dozen or so "pea sized" pellets (about #4 buckshot size) on top of their single ball in the musket. It is pretty devastating, but the idea is to get the target with the main ball, and if you don't, you have a chance of wounding the target from one or several of the additional buckshot. At a range where the ball and the buckshot will both hit the target, it's a moot point. That ball is sufficient, and needs no help to get the job completed.

LD

 

[RatDrall]

Double OO is very good against humans and dogs, you dont really have to aim TOO much, just enough to get the job done.

Here's a pattern fired at 10' using the Federal Tactical 00 Buckshot out of an 18" barrel, makes a great case for aiming buckshot (I think that the wad made a bigger hole than the shot did):

 

[Yo Mama]

Have to aim with any gun. Only person you should listen to is you. Many here in this post have good information, some don't.

Best advise I'd have on patterning is for you to shoot a patterning board or target to see level of aiming needed. The above post shows that you definately have to aim, as with any gun.

Also, compare loads to choose from, which right now is not the easiest to find.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Why 00?

It works....

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Yo Mama, you aim good enough and the weapon will hit the target.

There will be NO time to settle down into your favorite range position either triangle or weaver perfect stance, neck loose, cup of coffee on the table, cheer leaders to the rear and spectators lined up watching. /sarcasm.

At 12 feet or less in any part of the house aiming is going to happen automatically without consious thought. On my rem 870 for example I can do it through the reflex sight, off the bead at the end of barrel OR off the laser dot on the bad guy previously verified to be zeroed at 25 feet plus or minus a half inch. Three different ways.

One gun has a bright combat light on the rail, it casts a shadow of it's own barrel and it's bead sight perfectly onto a badguy at 14 feet center mass.

If one misses, there are 3 or 4 more to make corrections. Aiming perfect is going to be the least of your worries. It just has to be good enough to STOP the bad guy's ACTIONS or CRIME against you or your family.

You want to stop whatever is being done against you. And usually some people dont stop because of drugs or meth etc until they are dead. Like zombies.

Practicing at the range and shoot often at various targets and distances. Do drilling.

The aiming part will become automatic when you have sufficient trigger time. It just happened to me the other day with my hand guns front sight. Out it popped with the target just beyond and I started grouping within 4 inches of center mass without trying rapid fire.

Practice makes good.

The way things are going we might have devices on our weapons that provide a auto stabilized and aim correction for us, all we need to do is point it at the bad guy 10 years from now.

That is my position on aiming in general. Anyone else have issues with it? Or should I start digging up my very bad newbie gun owner aimed shot target paper results?

 

[mgregg85]

"...makes so many advocate 00?..." It sounds mean. Buck shot, on game, past 20 yards is mostly useless. Not enough pellets for a clean kill on game.
"...See a trend?..." A 3" mag load of #4 Buck has 41 6mm pellets and it's not accurate enough to hunt anything.
"...9 roughly .35 caliber pellets is a pretty potent package..." .33" and not accurate enough

Wrong, wrong and wrong again. I've seen several whitetails shot at around 20 to 40 yards with 00 buck and they all died pretty fast.

People use #4 on turkey all the time. Isn't that hunting?

00 Buck has been plenty accurate enough for me, even out of my cylinder bore 590.

 

[Maverick223]

I prefer a No. 1 or No. 4 buck for social work, lots of pellets to get the job done. For hunting at close range (less than 50yds) 00 is about as good as it gets. 000 is .36" vs. 00 .33"...so not a big difference except less load diversity available. Personally I don't like slugs too much, I have rifles for that type of role and I believe they are better suited to that job. I do keep a couple boxes "just in case" because if I had to move fast and needed one gun that would be light, fast, and get the job done the 12Ga can make it happen; and using a shotgun at moderate range on large game/threats requires slugs...preferably Brenekke.

 

[LoneStarWings]

I would like to pattern some #1 buck if I could find some around here. I hear federal doesn't even make #1 anymore. I guess I should break down and just find some remington or winchester to order online. In the meantime I keep my HD gun loaded with 00 because it seems better than slugs (ballistically) at close range.

 

[flyingdeserteagle]

Sabot Slugs are great as well for longer ranges. Up close and personal really warrants the use of buckshot. 12guage 00, preferably.

 

[Badger Arms]

There is a huge difference between bleeding out and anchoring a game animal; a big difference between killing and stopping a bad guy. To kill, you need to cause enough damage to cease bodily functions. That usually happens through holes and blood loss. Cutting capillary through artery so blood comes out #4 and #1 Buck do an admiral job of that on human-sized targets.

To STOP somebody who's already agitated from doing what they are doing (bad enough stuff to get shot for), you need t break bones, destroy muscle, destroy nerves, etc. You have to penetrate deeply and reliably and strike major organs with enough authority do destroy them.

The "Box-O-Truth" said it best:

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

 

[Fred Fuller]

I use it because it patterns very well and very reliably in the guns I depend on. I use it because it has a long standing record of useful performance against thin skinned, relatively lightly boned creatures. There isn't a lot of theory, guesswork or assumption involved in either of those things. That's good enough for me...

lpl

 

[RatDrall]

There is a huge difference between bleeding out and anchoring a game animal; a big difference between killing and stopping a bad guy. To kill, you need to cause enough damage to cease bodily functions. That usually happens through holes and blood loss. Cutting capillary through artery so blood comes out #4 and #1 Buck do an admiral job of that on human-sized targets.

Nervous or structural system destruction works much more quickly than blood loss, no matter how many holes you poke.

A shotgun, while having to be aimed, gives you a few inches of forgiveness so that if you can hit within a few inches of the spine or brainbox you can end the attack.

 

[Badger Arms]

Nervous or structural system destruction works much more quickly than blood loss, no matter how many holes you poke.

Uh, yeah, that's what I said later in the post.

 

[ArmedBear]

I've seen several whitetails shot at around 20 to 40 yards with 00 buck and they all died pretty fast.

It's kinda like they were hit 9 times at once, with the bullets that our forebears used one at a time in their muzzleloaders...

That said, here in the West I don't think anyone uses buckshot much. I see deer frequently, even near town, but usually more than 20 yards away.

 

[RatDrall]

Uh, yeah, that's what I said later in the post.

My post was poorly worded, I didn't mean to come across like I was correcting you, I was agreeing and expanding on it.