I get the need for load development and how a rest is used to understand the true accuracy of a rifle. By its nature, the rest is made to take the shooter's ability out of the equation. So when someone asks what MOA you are capable of shooting, is the reply based on you holding the rifle or the rifle straped in a rest front and rear?
Why fix a rifle to a rest?
- Thread starter Robert101
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Roadking Rider
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You would think holding the rifle would be the only honest answer. Like you said the rest is taking a large part of the you out of the equasion.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
By a rest & load or accuracy testing, I think of sandbags on a bench.
A rifle clamped in a vice is fixed, but it will not shoot the same as it will hand held on bags.
Maybe worse, or maybe better, but not the same.
rc
A rifle clamped in a vice is fixed, but it will not shoot the same as it will hand held on bags.
Maybe worse, or maybe better, but not the same.
rc
Smith357
Member
I rest the rifle in a machine rest for load testing and shoot in multiple positions after the load has been developed. When they ask what the rifle can do I tell them, when they ask what I can do I tell them I can't shoot as well as the rifle.
gunnutter
Member
"When they ask what the rifle can do I tell them, when they ask what I can do I tell them I can't shoot as well as the rifle."
+1 Amen to that!
+1 Amen to that!
epijunkie67
Member
There is a difference between the questions "how well does your rifle shoot?" and "how well do you shoot your rifle?".
Firing from a rest answers the first question. The second question can only be answered by you shooting your weapon. It also has to be expressed as a function of your shooting position since shooting from a bench is different than shooting prone or standing.
Firing from a rest answers the first question. The second question can only be answered by you shooting your weapon. It also has to be expressed as a function of your shooting position since shooting from a bench is different than shooting prone or standing.
chrome_austex
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Front and rear sandbags are the most accurate for me, and I use them to test mechanical accuracy of ammo and/or rifle.
Outside of ammo testing, I like to shoot with a more portable setup like prone with a sling, or bipod and rear bag.
Outside of ammo testing, I like to shoot with a more portable setup like prone with a sling, or bipod and rear bag.
Good post. I always wonder about this. I shoot at the range holding the gun with 2 hands and resting on bench. At home I am standing . I want to know what I can do , not the rifle.
R and D , sighting is one thing but to brag about super tight groups while the rifle is clamped or bedded down on sand bags is not really impressive. Just shows what the fire arm is capable of not the shooter. By the way I suck as a marksman
R and D , sighting is one thing but to brag about super tight groups while the rifle is clamped or bedded down on sand bags is not really impressive. Just shows what the fire arm is capable of not the shooter. By the way I suck as a marksman
Fat_46
Member
The answer is...it depends! I use a front machine rest and rear bag in load development. BUT I also use the same setup when prairie dog shooting. It just isn't practical to try and hold some of my varmint rifles. For instance, my 700 in 260 weighs 16.34 pounds, the 243 weighs just a touch over 14, and even the 204 tops 10 pounds!
I also use the rest/bag combo for ensuring my deer rifles (BDL in 280 and an Armalite AR10) are sighted in correctly. Maybe its all mental, but knowing that my deer rifles have the capability to shoot into the .75 to 1 inch mark for 5 rounds gives me the confidence when shooting in the woods, either from a set of sticks or freehand.
I also use the rest/bag combo for ensuring my deer rifles (BDL in 280 and an Armalite AR10) are sighted in correctly. Maybe its all mental, but knowing that my deer rifles have the capability to shoot into the .75 to 1 inch mark for 5 rounds gives me the confidence when shooting in the woods, either from a set of sticks or freehand.
Tim the student
Member
I don't think I've ever been asked that - just how well a rifle shoots. And with that, I tell them, which for me is always best off a rest and bags.
Where do we draw the line as to what it means for us to be shooting? (Is off a bipod with a squeeze bag "cheating"? What about prone with a sling? A good sling will help out tremendously in the prone, and I consider that to be how well "I" shoot, even though it is with the assistance of the sling.)
FWIW, I do appreciate the skill of all different types of shooting. Its all different type of marksmanship.
For me, I feel ok saying "I" shot the groups off a bipod in the prone.
Where do we draw the line as to what it means for us to be shooting? (Is off a bipod with a squeeze bag "cheating"? What about prone with a sling? A good sling will help out tremendously in the prone, and I consider that to be how well "I" shoot, even though it is with the assistance of the sling.)
FWIW, I do appreciate the skill of all different types of shooting. Its all different type of marksmanship.
For me, I feel ok saying "I" shot the groups off a bipod in the prone.
tahoe2
Member
load development = sandbags & a bench, then I go and practice off hand with a sling, against a tree or fence, or sitting, or semi prone over a log, cause those are the positions I'll use when hunting.
sansone
Member
yes, this ^^
YankeeFlyr
Member
I use a high bag in the front and a shorty bag in back (usually) for handload eval.
jr_roosa
Member
I use sling-supported prone. Anytime I try to use a rest, either on a bench or prone, the groups start to open up. Somehow the rest makes me do something else less consistently.
-J.
-J.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
I've seen arguments pro and con about machine rests vs. sandbags, through the years. The argument seems to be about uniformity of vibrations when comparing the two methods.
I dunno.
Now, with sandbags, the vibrations are deadened as compared to a machine rest. Maybe that can contribute to better uniformity.
I've always used sandbags when shooting from my benchrest. I work at always having the bags in the same position for each shot, and always trying for a perfect sight picture. So far, I've been satisfied with the results.
I dunno.
Now, with sandbags, the vibrations are deadened as compared to a machine rest. Maybe that can contribute to better uniformity.
I've always used sandbags when shooting from my benchrest. I work at always having the bags in the same position for each shot, and always trying for a perfect sight picture. So far, I've been satisfied with the results.
sansone
Member
for what it's worth, I like sandbags when testing loads. My buddy allowed me to use his mechanical rest while I tried to work up a load for my mini14..
The rifle had never shot such tight groups, not even sandbagged. I wonder if barrel harmonics may have been reduced more with the mechanical rest?
The rifle had never shot such tight groups, not even sandbagged. I wonder if barrel harmonics may have been reduced more with the mechanical rest?
JohnM
Member
Some people take bench rest shooting to whole different levels.
To where the only contact with the rifle is touching the trigger.
Not my cup of tea, but those guys shoot some amazing groups.
To where the only contact with the rifle is touching the trigger.
Not my cup of tea, but those guys shoot some amazing groups.
sansone
Member
funny how barrels (whole gun actually) responds to different changes in dynamics. I've seen shooters with a mechanical device on the trigger to completely eliminate the human interface
CharlieDeltaJuliet
Member
I mainly shoot bipod only one rifles. But I have seen some cases where people have problems holding the firearms and use attached benches. I have no problem with it. If they have fun so be it. A local guy has MS, and cannot steady the rifle he shoots, but he has a benchrest rifle he designed that he only controls the bolt and trigger. He has a blast and is hitting beyond 600 yds with his .243. More power to him. To each their own.
Now some perspective. I've shot pistols and revolvers for over 25 years. With handguns you reload for practice and then fill the magazine with store bought for defense. Accuracy is maybe secondary so the change in ammo really isn't that much of a priority - as MOA is not even part of the vocabulary.
Only a year ago I bought an LR 308 and felt like every time I hit the range I made a trip to Disney Land. What a different world than handguns - power and accuracy. So I watch people at range with all sorts of devices to aid in accuracy and wonder how all of this relates to me and were I am in this long arm game. I am a reloader by the way. I've come to the conclusion that you should take what you can from the sniper, hunter, and target master if you want to be a good shooter. So I try a little of the bipod shooting, load development and freehand positions and here is where I stand.
At the bipod I can shoot (no rear support) up to 1 MOA with my DPMS 308 LR (Scope attached). No real load development and in Desert wind conditions - 2.25" @ 225 yards.
Standing with iron sights I'm a 14 MOA at 100 yards (all shots within a 14" circle).
Sitting with iron sights I'm an 8" MOA at 100 yards.
I haven't tried a bench rest yet.
Heck, I just enjoy shooting and I have a lot to improve upon but I'm not unhappy with the results. Heck, no target barrel or special equipment here.
Only a year ago I bought an LR 308 and felt like every time I hit the range I made a trip to Disney Land. What a different world than handguns - power and accuracy. So I watch people at range with all sorts of devices to aid in accuracy and wonder how all of this relates to me and were I am in this long arm game. I am a reloader by the way. I've come to the conclusion that you should take what you can from the sniper, hunter, and target master if you want to be a good shooter. So I try a little of the bipod shooting, load development and freehand positions and here is where I stand.
At the bipod I can shoot (no rear support) up to 1 MOA with my DPMS 308 LR (Scope attached). No real load development and in Desert wind conditions - 2.25" @ 225 yards.
Standing with iron sights I'm a 14 MOA at 100 yards (all shots within a 14" circle).
Sitting with iron sights I'm an 8" MOA at 100 yards.
I haven't tried a bench rest yet.
Heck, I just enjoy shooting and I have a lot to improve upon but I'm not unhappy with the results. Heck, no target barrel or special equipment here.
41 Mag
Member
Well not really, I strive for MOA accuracy from my handguns just like I do from my rifles. Especially if I am shooting from a rest. I consider my handgun loads to be just as important, as far as accuracy is concerned, as my rifles as I use them for hunting. IF they shoot lousy groups while at practice they will do so in the field and this simply is unacceptable. There are only two of them which EVER see factory ammo, my 45 ACP and a pocket sized .380. Even with this ammo, I expect groups of 2" or less at 15-25yds.
Your certainly headed down the right track with your rifle shooting. This said you should pick up a set of front and rear bags at the very least and give them a ry. I use these Caldwell bags for 95% of my load development with my rifles,
They are pretty cheap at around $15-20 bucks depending on where you get them. You fill them yourself with whatever media you choose. I filled mine with some walnut tumbling media and it works great.
This said when I develop most of my revolver loads I use this rest for the front only with a leather bag instead of the denim type to avoid it being cut by the blast coming from the cylinder gap.
I also do some development with the handguns shooting only freehand too. After I get a load nailed down I shoot mostly free hand at 25-75yds and with a rest past this, then from field positions. This way I know for a fact how well either the rifle or handgun loads "should" preform, so from my perspective anything outside what they will do from the rest, is on me, and I have to work on bettering myself to get up to that level.
As for as after the loads have been found, I shoot from hunting type positions while on my property, but some ranges do not allow this. On my own property I use the bags, bi-pods, both short with the rear support of some kind or the longer ones where I sit and support the rear myself. This gives me the confidence knowing how well the load should shoot, to work on my technique. From a rest I personally demand 1" or less from all of my rifles at 100-200yds depending on which one it is. All of my revolvers shoot loads which are easily capable of 1" rested groups at 25-50yds. With most of these I can also keep them pretty darned close to that with out the rest.
All said and done however, I have been shooting rifles and handguns of some sort for 43 of my 48yrs, and loading my own ammo, (while heavily supervised when young) since I was 8, so I do have a bit of a advantage on some. My pop was a shooter no doubts about it. We would carry a small surplus .30 Cal ammo can filled with handloads to the range, and when we left it only contained empty cases. This was done so much while I was growing up it was almost monotonous, I simply didn't get why we needed to shoot All of those bullets up. Nowadays, I know why, it was to work on trigger control, learn the trajectory, and reading the wind at the different range. Of course all of this was WAY prior to PC's, chronographs, and ballistic programs.
As for strapping a rifle down, I have personally never done that. I purchased a Dead Sled once, and after using it to try and develop a load with the rifle sitting in it unstrapped, I decided that simply wasn't my cup of tea.
As for when someone asks me how accurate I am I tell them the truth, "it depends on which rifle or handgun I am shooting at the time" . If they want to know the firearms capability I explain how the loads were tested, from the bench or free hand as in some of my handgun loads.
sansone
Member
discussing mechanical rests, sandbags, where is a gun being blamed for inaccuracy?
funny how barrels (whole gun actually) responds to different changes in dynamics. I've seen shooters with a mechanical device on the trigger to completely eliminate the human interface
Right, but it can work both ways if the rests are not placed properly.
I have two Contender Carbines that are sensitive to where the rifle is placed on a front sandbag. One location and they shoot great. Move the bag a bit on the forearm and groups go to pot.
The load on the barrel changes as the sand bag is moved affecting the dynamics of the system.
Interesting, both shoot pretty well off a bipod, but not so well with a sand bag placed at the mounting lug for the bipod. I suppose the differences in the points of contact are the reason changing the dynamics of the barrel.
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