mercedesrules
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No.
All markets should be free...to give or refuse service for any reason, whatsoever.
MR
Why I think drugs should be legal
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All markets should be free...to give or refuse service for any reason, whatsoever.
MR
MeekandMild
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Then the state and its citizens shouldn't have to pay your hospital bills.
That sounds like a good Bob Kerry answer. So make up your mind, which is it? No or yes?No.
True Ideas
It's true.
We shouldn't be forced to pay for other's health care, no matter if it's for drugs or cancer. We have plenty of private health care services to provide for that.
On the other hand, some hardcore abusers will end up commiting crimes to feed their habit, no matter what. They do it now, and will do it in the future. We don't know yet whether ending the WOD will increase or decrease their numbers. I'm betting the numbers will remain stable or decrease, and the other effects would be positive overall.
The prison system is expensive enough that I think some research into seeing if treatment centers might be a better idea, at least for non-violent offenders. I'd support them for ALL drug abuse, even alcohol and tobacco. Research has shown tobacco to be one of the most addictive drugs out there.
It's a purely pragmatic move on my part. I view ending the WOD as a more important goal than re-privatizing medical care.
One thing that we have to avoid is ghettoizing drug use. If we have a 'test' city, town, or state. We would have the problem that most of the users would move there, upsetting the balance. This would result in the politicals being able to point fingers and say 'it doesn't work!'
It's true.
We shouldn't be forced to pay for other's health care, no matter if it's for drugs or cancer. We have plenty of private health care services to provide for that.
On the other hand, some hardcore abusers will end up commiting crimes to feed their habit, no matter what. They do it now, and will do it in the future. We don't know yet whether ending the WOD will increase or decrease their numbers. I'm betting the numbers will remain stable or decrease, and the other effects would be positive overall.
The prison system is expensive enough that I think some research into seeing if treatment centers might be a better idea, at least for non-violent offenders. I'd support them for ALL drug abuse, even alcohol and tobacco. Research has shown tobacco to be one of the most addictive drugs out there.
It's a purely pragmatic move on my part. I view ending the WOD as a more important goal than re-privatizing medical care.
One thing that we have to avoid is ghettoizing drug use. If we have a 'test' city, town, or state. We would have the problem that most of the users would move there, upsetting the balance. This would result in the politicals being able to point fingers and say 'it doesn't work!'
mjydrafter
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Wow, some excellent new posts in this old thread. I know I said I wouldn't post anymore on this subject, but... really it's been like a year...
I would be curious; lets say for arguments sake, that we decide to go the route of freedom and allow peaceable citizens to put into thier own bodies whatever they choose.
We would also review every case of forfieture, and every case of imprisonment due to the prohibition of certian substances in cases where the only crime was possesion. (this would have a cost, but the overall savings would be greater in the long run, when we had room in our prisons for actual criminals, and the courts weren't clogged with prohibition cases.)
Now, we also put our law enforcement resources towards problems like actual crime, ie; murder, theft, fraud, and that one thing everyone is talking about...real honest to goodness terrorism (not some stretch of logic that some local law enforcement/prosecutor came up with to make a name for themselves).
Lets add in industrial hemp production for fun. Hemp seeds produce oil in quantities second only to soybeans, in a much easier to grow plant (it's a weed!). We have our farmers producing the best source of biomass material around, and/or a renewable source of energy (seed oil).
Think about these things and the "trickle down" effect they would have. I would bet we could have some of our lost freedoms back and end most of the redistribution of wealth that goes on every year about this time. I think the amount of money we would save would be staggering.
I would be curious; lets say for arguments sake, that we decide to go the route of freedom and allow peaceable citizens to put into thier own bodies whatever they choose.
We would also review every case of forfieture, and every case of imprisonment due to the prohibition of certian substances in cases where the only crime was possesion. (this would have a cost, but the overall savings would be greater in the long run, when we had room in our prisons for actual criminals, and the courts weren't clogged with prohibition cases.)
Now, we also put our law enforcement resources towards problems like actual crime, ie; murder, theft, fraud, and that one thing everyone is talking about...real honest to goodness terrorism (not some stretch of logic that some local law enforcement/prosecutor came up with to make a name for themselves).
Lets add in industrial hemp production for fun. Hemp seeds produce oil in quantities second only to soybeans, in a much easier to grow plant (it's a weed!). We have our farmers producing the best source of biomass material around, and/or a renewable source of energy (seed oil).
Think about these things and the "trickle down" effect they would have. I would bet we could have some of our lost freedoms back and end most of the redistribution of wealth that goes on every year about this time. I think the amount of money we would save would be staggering.
mercedesrules
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Haha! I was joking about your phrasing of the question. You asked, "Would it be too much to ask when you legalize all this crap, would you also make it legal to refuse medical care to people who have bad trips but who have no money to pay for their emergency room visits, et cetera?
I answered, "No, (it would not be too much to ask.")
MR
mercedesrules
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Not very often when drugs are the price of celery.
MR
Mercedes
Not very often when drugs are the price of celery.
Studies have shown that the 'abuse' rate, where people use drugs to the point that they can't support themselves, is pretty much constant. It almost doesn't matter if it's free, the rest of life costs money. You're going to have some trouble where some people are so whacked out that they can't hold a job, so can't afford their drug. These people are around today. While them drying out because they don't have the cash/credit to buy them is a nice thought, at least a percentage of them will turn to crime to try to feed their habit.
Yes, the percentage would be low, but it'd still be there.
Not very often when drugs are the price of celery.
Studies have shown that the 'abuse' rate, where people use drugs to the point that they can't support themselves, is pretty much constant. It almost doesn't matter if it's free, the rest of life costs money. You're going to have some trouble where some people are so whacked out that they can't hold a job, so can't afford their drug. These people are around today. While them drying out because they don't have the cash/credit to buy them is a nice thought, at least a percentage of them will turn to crime to try to feed their habit.
Yes, the percentage would be low, but it'd still be there.
mercedesrules
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Agreed. As they say, "Utopia is not an option".
MR
MeekandMild
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Says one publik skule gradurate to another...
You know, I never did find out what was the difference in a preposition and a participle. All I know was Jesus recruited 12 participles and Lincoln acted under the preposition that all men were created equal.
As Chris Rock said,"Any time crack cocaine is cheaper than asthma medicine, you have lost the war on drugs."
Insanity- Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. We keep arresting and jailing people for drugs but there are more drugs on the streets than ever before and they are cheaper and higher quality. We've lost the war on drugs. It is a failure. It doesn't work. It's time to try something different.
Insanity- Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. We keep arresting and jailing people for drugs but there are more drugs on the streets than ever before and they are cheaper and higher quality. We've lost the war on drugs. It is a failure. It doesn't work. It's time to try something different.
Yowza
Member
And the police forces will have plenty of resources to capture them and the prisons will have plenty of room to hold them. Or they'll get capped by some law-abiding gun owner and we'll all cheer.
Rick
lycanthrope
Member
(Originally posted by 444.)
I hear that loud and clear.
I am an administrator/psychotherapist for a local agency. It's my job to provide in-home services to families. I see families from all age groups, ethnicity, social class and otherwise. Most have substance abuse issues of some sort. That doesn't mean I'm always attacking the use. If the abuse/use isn't causing major problems in their system, we don't bother touching it. We simply don't have time. I'm more worried about any behavior that is going to get someone hurt right now.
We don't have the resources to wage a war on drugs. I wish we did, because we really can't afford to let it go. I'm not saying the current war is effective.....because it's not, but we need to reduce the number of people on drugs.
Locally, in a small town in PA, around 70% of high school seniors have used marijuana. 1-3% of SIX GRADERS have huffed inhalants. I've been doing this work for 10 years and I can guarantee you. It is definately getting more widespread. (Heroin is on the upsring here now that it is smokeable and doesn't carry the penalties that crack does......because the penalties go by weight and horse is light.)
Most don't have immediate problems.
Neither do 3 out of 4 cigarette smokers, but the 1 in 4 that do have taxed our health care system (2 major killers are heart disease and lung cancer. Both kill slow and are costly. Why do you think the gov't supports cigarette reduction? 'Cause they care about your health!?). Marijuana has several times over the carcinogens........ Just because you played Russian roullette and survived doesn't mean the game is harmless........
I know the WOD costs money, but........... let me remind you:
YOU pay the money for police to break up the domestic violence that can be linked to some forms of drug abuse (unless you want to give women the freedom to get beat by their cracked out boyfriends)
YOU pay for the extra security in school because of the mental health disorders linked to usage during pregnancy and childrearing.
YOU pay in lost funding for your school because the small percentage who are true "stoners" lost 10 points on their IQ due to smoking weed 3x a week for the past year.
YOU pay for several underfunded agencies to work with these kids and adults for YEARS so they don't go postal......(or should I let them in your kids school? Don't blame me.......my program is nearly 90% effective, but I may lose it because everyone thinks that working with "bad" kids/families doesn't effect them.....)
YOU pay for the health care of the poor who get cancer for smoking 5 blunts a day (yeah, I have 15 year old kids doing 5 FREAKING blunts...A DAY. Before you say this isn't fair, how many of you can afford to pay for your loved one who has cancer?)
YOU pay the increased taxes and insurance costs because 444 is cleaning up clumsy stoned people (Or.....Do we let them drop dead on the sidewalk in front of your 5 year old?)
No one will ever really know the math..........
Until then, I'll do my best to dig some of these people out.....somehow.
In the meantime, stay hot because that one guy in 1000 who is on PCP may be looking at your door.....or your daughter. If making it legal would increase it to 2 in 1000 would you do it?
Peace......
Lyc
I think that you missed some points
lycanthrope, your post never really contradicted our viewpoint, but there are some points.
1. An amount of the problem is adulteration of drugs. This would be pretty much eliminated if the FDA at least had a standardization of purity for the drugs. A practical consideration, if you think.
2. We're predicting that the amount of usage would remain stable. Economic loss from the WOD would be eliminated. The funding could be redirected to treatment, as well as converting funds that are making drug lords rich to tax revenues. As in we'd have the money to fund the treatment centers.
3. Sure, cigarettes are harmfull. So isn't alot of stuff, including being fat. I have to say that I believe that we have to allow people to harm themselves. Part of the 'pursuit of happiness' thing. If knocking 10 points of IQ off is their thing, so be it.
4. Part of the idea is that the people would be less likely to use dangerous drugs like PCP if the other (safer) are cheaper and more available. We can start with the 'soft' drugs first, then work our way to the more dangerous, keeping an eye on the effects.
5. I don't think that any one of us hasn't supported throwing the book at criminals, whatever reason they're commiting crimes for. Whether it be for drugs, because of drugs, money, or just for the hell of it. After all, the prisons would be significantly more empty after this.
lycanthrope, your post never really contradicted our viewpoint, but there are some points.
1. An amount of the problem is adulteration of drugs. This would be pretty much eliminated if the FDA at least had a standardization of purity for the drugs. A practical consideration, if you think.
2. We're predicting that the amount of usage would remain stable. Economic loss from the WOD would be eliminated. The funding could be redirected to treatment, as well as converting funds that are making drug lords rich to tax revenues. As in we'd have the money to fund the treatment centers.
3. Sure, cigarettes are harmfull. So isn't alot of stuff, including being fat. I have to say that I believe that we have to allow people to harm themselves. Part of the 'pursuit of happiness' thing. If knocking 10 points of IQ off is their thing, so be it.
4. Part of the idea is that the people would be less likely to use dangerous drugs like PCP if the other (safer) are cheaper and more available. We can start with the 'soft' drugs first, then work our way to the more dangerous, keeping an eye on the effects.
5. I don't think that any one of us hasn't supported throwing the book at criminals, whatever reason they're commiting crimes for. Whether it be for drugs, because of drugs, money, or just for the hell of it. After all, the prisons would be significantly more empty after this.
lycanthrope
Member
Firethorn,
Contradiction was never my intention. I'm for people doing what they want....as long as they don't effect me in a negative way. I simply have personal experience with observing how these problems do effect me.
As for the prediction that the usage would remain stable....I think that would depend on cultural factors and it sure isn't staying stable now.......
And....I just can't see how any regulated company/gov't could produce drugs cheaper than Joe Smith down the street. Some drugs like meth are dangerous and would require dangerous materials precautions and secure sites so as not to blow up city blocks. Even a high scale Marijuana farmer has overhead and insurance costs for his employees. Heck, I could get a dime bag full of seeds right now and grow my own for eternity......why go to Wal Mart for it? It's still gonna cost more than cigarettes for the same reason that the gov't is upping the cost of the coffin nails.....health care.
Contradiction was never my intention. I'm for people doing what they want....as long as they don't effect me in a negative way. I simply have personal experience with observing how these problems do effect me.
As for the prediction that the usage would remain stable....I think that would depend on cultural factors and it sure isn't staying stable now.......
And....I just can't see how any regulated company/gov't could produce drugs cheaper than Joe Smith down the street. Some drugs like meth are dangerous and would require dangerous materials precautions and secure sites so as not to blow up city blocks. Even a high scale Marijuana farmer has overhead and insurance costs for his employees. Heck, I could get a dime bag full of seeds right now and grow my own for eternity......why go to Wal Mart for it? It's still gonna cost more than cigarettes for the same reason that the gov't is upping the cost of the coffin nails.....health care.
"I can assure you that the odds are, you have no idea what is going on in society."
A little off topic, but I get a big kick out of the nightly TV "news". They show a breaking news story of a drug lab bust, or an indoor marijuana farm, or a shooting, or some guy that snapped and held his whole family hostage or whatever. And they interview some moron who says, " I can't believe something like this happened in our neighborhood".
Guess what ?
They have no idea what is going on in society.
This stuff only happens on TV. It is something they think exists for the sole purpose of making movies more exciting.
Wrong. It is happening in your neighborhood. It is happening with half the cars you pass going to work. It is happening in your kids schools. Members of your church are involved. Members of your gun club are involved.
Paranoid ?
Truth is stanger than fiction and I have seen far too much of this with my own eyes to consider myself paranoid. I also have seen enough of it to know that anyone who thinks this is paranoid has their head buried in the sand.
A little off topic, but I get a big kick out of the nightly TV "news". They show a breaking news story of a drug lab bust, or an indoor marijuana farm, or a shooting, or some guy that snapped and held his whole family hostage or whatever. And they interview some moron who says, " I can't believe something like this happened in our neighborhood".
Guess what ?
They have no idea what is going on in society.
This stuff only happens on TV. It is something they think exists for the sole purpose of making movies more exciting.
Wrong. It is happening in your neighborhood. It is happening with half the cars you pass going to work. It is happening in your kids schools. Members of your church are involved. Members of your gun club are involved.
Paranoid ?
Truth is stanger than fiction and I have seen far too much of this with my own eyes to consider myself paranoid. I also have seen enough of it to know that anyone who thinks this is paranoid has their head buried in the sand.
I just got an E-Mail from my mother. One of those things that is similar to something you get everday. This one is a list of trivia about life in the US in the year 1904; 100 years ago. I don't know if these things are real, I never investigated it. But, here are two of the trivia "facts" listed:
Marijuana, heroin, and morphine were all available
over the counter at corner drugstores. According to
one pharmacist, "Heroin clears the complexion, gives
buoyancy to the mind, regulates the stomach and
bowels, and is, in fact, a perfect guardian of health."
There were only about 230 reported murders in the
entire U.S.
Marijuana, heroin, and morphine were all available
over the counter at corner drugstores. According to
one pharmacist, "Heroin clears the complexion, gives
buoyancy to the mind, regulates the stomach and
bowels, and is, in fact, a perfect guardian of health."
There were only about 230 reported murders in the
entire U.S.
mercedesrules
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Is your employer public or private?
MR
fjolnirsson
Member
The following is from a site recommended by my academy instructor(a sergeant with the Sonoma County Sheriff's Office Narcotics team) for learning about drugs.
A small portion of the "timeline of Heroin"
1874 Heroin is first synthesized from Morphine by chemist C.R. Alder Wright at St. Mary's Hospital in London. Its potential was not recognized.
1897 Heroin is synthesized by Felix Hoffman at Bayer Pharmaceutical. Bayer immediately recognized its potential and began marketing it heavily for the treatment of a variety of respiratory ailments.
1898 One year after beginning sales, Bayer exports heroin to 23 countries.
Early 1900s Doctors and pharmacists begin noticing that patients are consuming large amounts of heroin containing cough remedies.
1906 Pure Food and Drug Act is passed, regulating the labelling of products containing Alcohol, Opiates, Cocaine, and Cannabis, among others. The law went into effect Jan 1, 1907
1911 British Pharmaceutical Codex notes that heroin is as addictive as morphine.
1913 Bayer ceases producing heroin.
Dec 17, 1914 The Harrison Narcotics Tax Act is passed, regulating and imposing a tax upon the sale of Opium, Heroin and Cocaine for the first time. The Act took effect Mar 1, 1915.
1924 The Heroin Act passes, making manufacture and possession of heroin illegal in the U.S.
Interesting, yes?
More info can be had at The Vaults of Erowid
(Edited to add:Some of the info on this site is spotty, but I'd say about 95% is spot on. The timeline above is, IIRC, totally correct.)
http://www.erowid.org
A small portion of the "timeline of Heroin"
1874 Heroin is first synthesized from Morphine by chemist C.R. Alder Wright at St. Mary's Hospital in London. Its potential was not recognized.
1897 Heroin is synthesized by Felix Hoffman at Bayer Pharmaceutical. Bayer immediately recognized its potential and began marketing it heavily for the treatment of a variety of respiratory ailments.
1898 One year after beginning sales, Bayer exports heroin to 23 countries.
Early 1900s Doctors and pharmacists begin noticing that patients are consuming large amounts of heroin containing cough remedies.
1906 Pure Food and Drug Act is passed, regulating the labelling of products containing Alcohol, Opiates, Cocaine, and Cannabis, among others. The law went into effect Jan 1, 1907
1911 British Pharmaceutical Codex notes that heroin is as addictive as morphine.
1913 Bayer ceases producing heroin.
Dec 17, 1914 The Harrison Narcotics Tax Act is passed, regulating and imposing a tax upon the sale of Opium, Heroin and Cocaine for the first time. The Act took effect Mar 1, 1915.
1924 The Heroin Act passes, making manufacture and possession of heroin illegal in the U.S.
Interesting, yes?
More info can be had at The Vaults of Erowid
(Edited to add:Some of the info on this site is spotty, but I'd say about 95% is spot on. The timeline above is, IIRC, totally correct.)
http://www.erowid.org
lycanthrope
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Private, non profit.
mercedesrules
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Then, why did you say this:
Who pays your salary? Is it charity, tax-funded or the patient paying? The reason it is important to me is that when people make an argument that I should be for the war on drugs because drug use is costing me money, I consider it a problem of socialism - not drugs.
Take away the taxpayer subsidy of most risks and it then becomes a matter of personal responsibility - like skiing, bungee-jumping or sky-diving.
MR
lycanthrope
Member
Funding comes from United way and County revenue since most referral are going to come from Children and Youth Services and Probation.
County and state funds are picking up the bill. Your taxes......
County and state funds are picking up the bill. Your taxes......
outfieldjack
Member
How can you say something is "ok" to do when you have never used it yourself?
mercedesrules
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In that case, I'll delicately tiptoe away from the personal aspect concerning you and your job to merely state that IMO, no tax money should go to medical care - especially for conditions the patient causes for himself.
In a free market, if there is a demand for drug treatment, it will be supplied.
MR
lycanthrope
Member
The everyone who is obese or has heart disease because they didn't exercise, smokes, or accidentally shoots themself is out of luck.........
Good idea. Hard to regulate.
Good idea. Hard to regulate.
mercedesrules
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MR
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