Why is 158gr LSWC considered tops for .38 special?

[10 Ringer']

Over the years that the .38 special was THE trusted lawman's friend in cities across the land, I heard the 158 LSWC was generally the right round for man vs man encounters. Reading up on it, it sounds like out of a +P chambering and standard 4 inch service length barrel, the 158 brings out something like 65-80% (depending on who analyizes the data) effective as afor a "manstopper" on a first shot to the torso area.

Why does a round that is regularly said to be impotent compared to the 9mm para, find itself on such a back burner when it is for many easier to shoot accurately from a service size weapon? Also, just what made/still makes the 158gr LSWC so highly recommended despite its slow speed and smaller diameter than the slow but big and bad .45ACP? Thanks.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Well first off, you can't go much heavier as the bullet wouldn't fit in the cylinder, unless you went to a 38 SW 200 gr load, which was really really slow.

The 158 gr lswchp bullet at 830 fps is called the "Agent', Chicago" or "FBI" load for years because many police depts endorsed it. its more or less a compromise between speed, penetration and controlability in a 4 inch police service weapon.

It's also a low pressure load.

Your average 115 gr jhp from a 9mm is cooking along at 1100 or more FPS, the brass needs to be stronger than the brass in a 38 case. Quite simply put, you can't drive a 38 cal bullet that fast without stregthening the Gun, the brass, or BOTH.

Some pistols were made, notably the Colt New Service and SW 38/44 Heavy Duty to fire a suped-up 38 (+P+) in the days before the 357, but that load is still very tough on a non +p rated gun.

Now most 38's still in service are NOT front line cop duty guns, they are back ups, detective's rigs or CCW's.

The 158 lswchp is the BEST overall load you could hope to throw at a bad guy from a 38. Esp. if your piece is not rated for +p.

Sure there are bigger guns on the market, but don't count out the 38. I doubt anyone would dare to stand in front of one that's being discharged.

 

[RWK]

For many years, the 158 grain, +P, lead SWC – and eventually LSWCHP – was the FBI’s standard carry round (in a Smith, N frame, .38 Special – what my Dad, a long-term FBI Special Agent, always referred to as “a .38 on a .44 frameâ€). Not only did this load work – it was a potent man-stopper – bit it also gained considerable popularity and credibility because of its extensive use throughout law enforcement.

Please note that in the above paragraph, I am applying modern terminology – +P, N Frame – that really was not in use back in the ’40 and ‘50s.

As to why the round was effective, I respectfully suggest that it: (1) had considerable mass, (2) had far-better velocity than the standard-pressure .38 Special, and (3) the soft non-jacketed lead projectile expanded with relative ease, especially in comparison to FMJs that were then widely carried. Please remember that effective JHPs were yet to be developed, so the natural expansion of a malleable bullet made it relatively more effective.

 

[C.R.Sam]

Some of the old 38-44 and .38 Special High Speed loads had little trouble crankin a 158gr bullet out at 1200 fps.

Two factors.
1 The loads were intended for, and appropriately labled, use in heavy frame stout guns.

2. Suits were far less common and people were expected to take responsibility for their own well being. Hence the warning label was considered adequate.

Nothing at all wrong with the .38 Special cartridge cept there are some really marginal guns available in that chambering. And lots of hungry lawyers.

Hence, the wimping down of the .38 Special.

Sam... Out to lunch. If not back by five, out for dinner also.

 

[Obiwan]

And now...the rest of the story.........................................

None of the .38 loads expand reliably..really!

So...based on that....go with whatever makes the biggest hole!

The service calibers all have had a lot of engineering thrown at their bullet design.(.45, 9mm, .40, .357, 10mm)

Cops switched to autopistols in a big way and revolver ammo went to the back burner.

So, the .38 and .357 have been stangnant for many, many years.

Your point about mild shooting is well taken though.....

Use what you can hit with....that is the most important.

 

[WT]

These are some really good responses to the question. I am impressed.

Okay guys, as a reward take the rest of the day off.

 

[C.R.Sam]

None of the .38 loads expand reliably..really!

Mine with JHPs did and do.
Good penetration and expansion testing on cloth covered beef quarters.

Sam

 

[Mike Irwin]

Not to mention that now that there is a science behind bullet design, instead of the equivilent of drilling a hollow into the tip of a bullet, expansion coupled with penetration is coming to be a MUCH more sure thing.

As for the old Winchester FBI load, a 158-gr. LSWCHP +P, I guarandamntee you those things expanded out of either a 3" or 4" barrel. I've shot enough of them over the years.

 

[Jim March]

While a lot of 38+P projectile design has indeed been "stagnant", that's not *universally* true. The Gold Dot 125 (in the flavor designed for 38+P velocities versus 357) is an example, as is the Winchester 130 Supreme.

When three good projectiles exist (those two above plus the 158 LSWC-HP +P) and are loaded by a number of reputable makers such as Winchester, Remington, Speer, ProLoad, Georgia Arms and Black Hills, it can hardly be said that the situation is grim.

You just need to be a bit selective, is all.

 

[Johnny Guest]

Agree with the majority of above comments - - -

The 158 was standardized upon early on as the "normal" weight for the .38 Special. Probably for the same reasons as the 87 and 117 gr. weights for .25 rifles - - The technology was already in place, there were good bullets available, et cetera.

For many years, the Winchester "Super Police" 200 gr. blunt round nose bullet was offered. I think Remington and Peters also had something similar. It normally cranked out of a six-inch at something like 750 fps. Not terrible, considering a decent shape. As snub nose revolvers became more popular and safety glass was required in automobiles, an interesting phenomemum was noted: The 200 gr from a two-inch wouldn't reliably penetrate the side window of a car, even when fired exactly perpendicular to the plane of the glass.

If you're a handloader and will shoot at least a four-inch K-frame revolver, you can stoke up some very good loads with the 173 to 200 gr. cast bullets, but you'll be exceeding most published .38 Special data to do so. These loads would be rather too brisk for controlability in most smaller revolvers, too. (Yes, sir, I know all about the .357-chambered J-frames. )

Best,
Johnny

 

[Tamara]

First, a 158gr .357" bullet is all ate up with sectional density, which translates into good penetration.

Second, the flat, sharp shouldered profile means less of a chance of skidding off ribs or headbones.

Combined, these create a round that has an excellent chance of making it into the boiler room or thinkbox.

Plus, (in its LSWC-HP +P form) it doesn't have any icky jacket to retard expansion, which is a good thing in a relatively slow-moving projectile.

 

[Jim March]

Tamara called it right. One more factor: plain lead rounds move faster than jacketed because the lead is slickerier . In a 4", the modest speed improvement isn't so critical but in a 2", you need to squeeze every ounce of performance out. Then as a bonus, the speed you get that way is perfect for expansion on a plain lead hollowpoint from a 4" tube, barely adequate from a 2".

 

[QuarterBoreGunner]

What Jim and Tamara said. I've tried various lighter high velocity loads and found that the old school metro, FBI, whatever, 158grn. LSWCHP+P is your best bet; again for all the reasons Jim and Tam said. Plain lead expands just nicely; the sharp shoulder on the round makes a nice sharp cutting edge.

 

[Obiwan]

http://www.ammolab.com/38spcl_-1.htm

Some good penetration....

But mediocre expansion....some appear to get smaller!