Gun Master
Member
The Bergman-Bayard (9mm Largo) has excellent balistics, similar to .38 Super. Why do you think neither are popular, and what are the chances of it (or both) making a come back?
Why Is 9mm Largo Not Offered in Current Pistols?
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Jim Watson
Member
The actual 9mm Bergman Bayard is darned scarce, without much opportunity to get acquainted.
The 9mm Spanish Largo is seen only in surplus Spanish guns dependent on surplus ammo, the one past production run of Blazer Largo, and capability of some guns to handle .38 Auto.
Ballistics are equaled by 9mm P with a lot more choice in guns and ammo.
There just isn't much attractive about it to the modern American shooter.
The .38 Super has declined to a niche product. As factory loaded, it is no faster than 9mm P +P and requires a long action. It is under attack by 9mm Major in USPSA which offers cheap brass.
Chances of comeback are nil. The Largo has been pushed to the back of the shelf by a lack of cheap ammo for cheap guns. The Super will remain a niche product for those who like good performance and something a little unusual, but it will not achieve mass popularity. Not that it ever had it to start with, except for the period in which it had a competitive advantage in USPSA. Which is a niche itself.
The 9mm Spanish Largo is seen only in surplus Spanish guns dependent on surplus ammo, the one past production run of Blazer Largo, and capability of some guns to handle .38 Auto.
Ballistics are equaled by 9mm P with a lot more choice in guns and ammo.
There just isn't much attractive about it to the modern American shooter.
The .38 Super has declined to a niche product. As factory loaded, it is no faster than 9mm P +P and requires a long action. It is under attack by 9mm Major in USPSA which offers cheap brass.
Chances of comeback are nil. The Largo has been pushed to the back of the shelf by a lack of cheap ammo for cheap guns. The Super will remain a niche product for those who like good performance and something a little unusual, but it will not achieve mass popularity. Not that it ever had it to start with, except for the period in which it had a competitive advantage in USPSA. Which is a niche itself.
I could be wrong, but my understanding is:
9mm largo is practically equivalent to 9mm parabellum in every way, except the brass is a little longer. The magazines and chamber OAL are 9mm para. I don't know what this Bergman thing is, but it's not 9mm largo. 38 Super is not 9mm largo.
The only reason for 9mm largo to even exist is for sale in countries which don't allow civilians to own military calibers.
If you want to shoot a more powerful 9mm, than handload it. As has been mentioned, 9mm can be handloaded to make major, in the right platform. There is no functional difference whether this were to be done in 9mm para brass or 9mm largo brass.
Compare this to 38 vs 357. In 357, the actual cylinder is .125" longer. The cartridge can be seated 0.125" longer. In 9mm largo, the cartridge is the same, just has a little extra "uncircumsized" brass covering more of the bullet.
9mm largo is practically equivalent to 9mm parabellum in every way, except the brass is a little longer. The magazines and chamber OAL are 9mm para. I don't know what this Bergman thing is, but it's not 9mm largo. 38 Super is not 9mm largo.
The only reason for 9mm largo to even exist is for sale in countries which don't allow civilians to own military calibers.
If you want to shoot a more powerful 9mm, than handload it. As has been mentioned, 9mm can be handloaded to make major, in the right platform. There is no functional difference whether this were to be done in 9mm para brass or 9mm largo brass.
Compare this to 38 vs 357. In 357, the actual cylinder is .125" longer. The cartridge can be seated 0.125" longer. In 9mm largo, the cartridge is the same, just has a little extra "uncircumsized" brass covering more of the bullet.
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Shadow 7D
Member
It provides nothing that current ammo doesn't, if you want 9mm, larger or more powerful than 9MM+p+ (and yeah, that's about as hot as you can push it in that small of a case)
You can get into any of the 9mm Mag type rounds, 9x21 etc.
It may have been an early entry, but is just not something that provides anything other than variety these days
You can get into any of the 9mm Mag type rounds, 9x21 etc.
It may have been an early entry, but is just not something that provides anything other than variety these days
TimboKhan
Member
Denis hit the nail on the head.
Janos Dracwlya
Member
It's too bad that it's so hard to find. I come across old Star autos all the time - good prices and good condition, but with ammunition so scarce and conversion barrels virtually non-existent, I let them go.
kBob
Member
9 mm Largo IS 9 mm B-B
and
It was the military and police standard in Spain for many decades.
It is not the same as the odd Italian 9mm that was offered as an alternative to military calibers.
-kBob
and
It was the military and police standard in Spain for many decades.
It is not the same as the odd Italian 9mm that was offered as an alternative to military calibers.
-kBob
Starline makes new brass to load it, and regular 9mm Luger dies can be used, and 9mm Luger loading data works. I wish CCI would run off some more Blazer in 9mm Largo, their load with the 124gr. Gold Dot HP feels quite more potent than factory 9mm Luger out of my Star Model Super. I did get a conversion barrel for mine so I can shoot either round, but I like the Largo, when I can get it.
Gun Master
Member
kBob, you are right. 9Largo is B-B. I have an excellent Astra 400( Modelo 1921), with 2 mags, that needs shooting. Still looking for non-corrosive ammo, if possible. The last I bought was many years ago, and may have been the last of the CCI Blazer that I have heard about. Anybody know if any commercial 9mm Largo is available?
9MM Baynard-Bergmann, Also called the Baynard Long ), Developed for the 1910 Baynard -Bermann automatic, which was the Danish Service weapon. The Spanish liked it and made many guns for it, except they chambered the guns in 9MM Largo { Spanish for 9MM Long }, both cartridges are the same. 9MM Baynard Long AKA 9MM Largo, "a rose by any other name, smells the same WS "
{ Spanish for 9MM Long }, both cartridges are the same. 9MM Baynard Long AKA 9MM Largo, "a rose by any other name, smells the same WS "
Backpacker33
Member
I encountered 9mm B-B in the late '70s early '80s in Europe and Africa. It was a revelation to me at the time. I remember how weird the guns were. One was kinda like a broom handle Mauser. The round seemed to have significantly more umph than 9mm Parabellum, but that could have been because of the nature of the guns that chambered it. As I said, they just plain seemed weird to me.
I remember feeling impressed by the perceived power until I got to try some NATO 9mm in my Sig 226. That was a gun I handled very well and I knew exactly how commercial ammo felt. At the first "BANG" I was thinking B-B in those other guns.
Everyone cautions against using 9mm+P+ in guns so I wonder why, with so many people seeming to ask for it, the manufacturers don't make guns built for that.
9mm NATO is what the military issues, and I haven't heard anything about early wear or failure of the Berettas.
I was issued a Sig 229/.357-Sig and again wondered why not 9mm+P+. 357Sig Bullets came flying out the barrel at 1275fps and more. I'm sure it's even more in the 226 chambered for it. Looking at the Beretta Brigadier it seems to be a beefed up gun. I would think it would easily handle higher powered 9mm.
Oh, well. Fun to watch.
I remember feeling impressed by the perceived power until I got to try some NATO 9mm in my Sig 226. That was a gun I handled very well and I knew exactly how commercial ammo felt. At the first "BANG" I was thinking B-B in those other guns.
Everyone cautions against using 9mm+P+ in guns so I wonder why, with so many people seeming to ask for it, the manufacturers don't make guns built for that.
9mm NATO is what the military issues, and I haven't heard anything about early wear or failure of the Berettas.
I was issued a Sig 229/.357-Sig and again wondered why not 9mm+P+. 357Sig Bullets came flying out the barrel at 1275fps and more. I'm sure it's even more in the 226 chambered for it. Looking at the Beretta Brigadier it seems to be a beefed up gun. I would think it would easily handle higher powered 9mm.
Oh, well. Fun to watch.
Gun Master
Member
Yeah, Ron & yeah for Ole Will. A "Rosie" well said.
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As a reloader I would like to see some alternative to the 9mm NATO that has no taper and no rim. The slight taper of the 9mm NATO means that you have to use a little lube even with carbide dies. And the slight rim on the 38 Super does nothing for accuracy or reliability.
Rock185
Member
I think Denis and others nailed it on the Largo/BB. I've little doubt that some Largo or BB factory ammo may have, equaled .38 Super ballistics, but my 14th. Ed. Speer manual shows loads at a lower pressure, due to some of the guns the Largo/BB might be fired in, that don't quite equal the commonly available 9x19MM.
BTW Ascot, I have used RCBS, and later Dillon, carbide dies for many years and have never had to lube 9MM cases. As to an untapered, rimless alternative to 9MM, FWIW I have been using the Starline Super Comp cases for loading 38 Super. The SC cases are not tapered like the 9X19 and are rimless, or nearly so. I have found the SC cases to feed very smoothly, and be less likely to nosedive from the magazine than the semi-rimmed 38S cases...ymmv
BTW Ascot, I have used RCBS, and later Dillon, carbide dies for many years and have never had to lube 9MM cases. As to an untapered, rimless alternative to 9MM, FWIW I have been using the Starline Super Comp cases for loading 38 Super. The SC cases are not tapered like the 9X19 and are rimless, or nearly so. I have found the SC cases to feed very smoothly, and be less likely to nosedive from the magazine than the semi-rimmed 38S cases...ymmv
Ash
Member
The real reason is that they already make new 9x23 pistols in the 9x23 Winchester, which is everything the Largo could have been, but wasn't.
So, in answer, it was revived, sort of. Why make 9x23 Largo (BB) when 9x23 Winchester is a better round?
So, in answer, it was revived, sort of. Why make 9x23 Largo (BB) when 9x23 Winchester is a better round?
Gun Master
Member
9 Largo & 9x23mm Win.
Is it safe to shoot the 9 x 23mm Winchester in the Astra & Star, etc. 9mm Largo guns ?
Is it safe to shoot the 9 x 23mm Winchester in the Astra & Star, etc. 9mm Largo guns ?
Jim Watson
Member
No.
Very no.
9x23 Win is nearly double the chamber pressure of the Largo.
Very no.
9x23 Win is nearly double the chamber pressure of the Largo.
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