Old School
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- Jun 13, 2008
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Why is everyone so down on 9mm's these days?
- Thread starter Blues Brother
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pbearperry
Member
Every Police Dept. has some sort of firearm Training Officer or Range Officer and these guys are always gun guys.They are the guys that give input about arms and ammo.When a certain round that is being used shows poor performance in the field even though there was good shot placement,they usually try to get the Chief to go with a better product.My Dept. had a couple of instances where the 9mm did not perform very well.At that point we then dumped the 147 gr subsonic HP and went with a 115 gr +P+,and finally to the .40 cal.
The biggest problem we had with the 147 gr subsonic was that a few of our female Officers were getting jams with the Glocks due to holding the gun with a limp wrist.As soon as the +P+ rounds were tried,that problem went away.The problem never resurfaced when we switched to the .40 cal Glocks either.
As far as Cops not being gunnies,my Dept. has improved greatly through the years.More Officers take firearm training a lot more serious that 30-40 years ago.
The biggest problem we had with the 147 gr subsonic was that a few of our female Officers were getting jams with the Glocks due to holding the gun with a limp wrist.As soon as the +P+ rounds were tried,that problem went away.The problem never resurfaced when we switched to the .40 cal Glocks either.
As far as Cops not being gunnies,my Dept. has improved greatly through the years.More Officers take firearm training a lot more serious that 30-40 years ago.
[QUOTEThe officer shot the perp 14 times, HIT HIM 14 times with 45 rounds.
][/QUOTE]
I'd like to add a case I read about in one of my ballistic books. The perp took 18 .357 magnum 125 grain +P rounds to the chest before dropping. The individual was was pumped up on a combination of PCP and Cocaine.
][/QUOTE]
I'd like to add a case I read about in one of my ballistic books. The perp took 18 .357 magnum 125 grain +P rounds to the chest before dropping. The individual was was pumped up on a combination of PCP and Cocaine.
highlander 5
Member
Haven't read thru all the threads but pistols and revolvers are not the best for protection,a rifle or shotgun is what is needed,but you can't hide either very well so it's down to a handgun. As someone said earlier NO one wants to be shot even if it's a 22. And I would agree that it's the SKILL of the operator. Who would you rather have shooting at you,some gang banger with a hand cannon or Jerry Miculek with a 22?
I seem to remember an incident back in the 80s a story of a guy on PCP shot 30 or 40 times by RI state troopers using 9 mm Silvertips and he would not go down he did finally more from loss of blood than anything else. Was it the failure of the 9 mm or the fact that you could have hit him with an RPG and he wouldn't have felt it.
I seem to remember an incident back in the 80s a story of a guy on PCP shot 30 or 40 times by RI state troopers using 9 mm Silvertips and he would not go down he did finally more from loss of blood than anything else. Was it the failure of the 9 mm or the fact that you could have hit him with an RPG and he wouldn't have felt it.
bluetopper
Member
Is stopping power the ONLY attribute we deem worthy in a caliber?
How about shooting for pure pleasure at extended range/outdoor sessions.
25 yard accuracy/group size? Isn't that an attribute worth mentioning?
Cost and ease of reloading?
My how today's gun culture has changed.
How about shooting for pure pleasure at extended range/outdoor sessions.
25 yard accuracy/group size? Isn't that an attribute worth mentioning?
Cost and ease of reloading?
My how today's gun culture has changed.
Beagle-zebub
Member
Where do you live?
Aaryq
Member
It's because 9mm will actually bounce off of a human target and injure the one who's shooting.
Seriously, a 9mm protects my home and I'm happy with it.
Seriously, a 9mm protects my home and I'm happy with it.
Poor East Texan
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- Joined
- May 15, 2008
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- 366
Hmmm....
This gets me thinking...
I have a second gen S&W 9MM as a truck gun. The most likely scenario would be a car jacker, at which I would pull the S&W and point it.
It only stands to figure that the jacker looking at a .45 hole (11.4mm) instead of 9MM (.35) might be a little more scared.....
Hate to expose my old 1911A to the possibilty.... nor my 1911A1 "custom" gun.
Guess I'll be looking for a decent .45 FTF deal.....
This gets me thinking...
I have a second gen S&W 9MM as a truck gun. The most likely scenario would be a car jacker, at which I would pull the S&W and point it.
It only stands to figure that the jacker looking at a .45 hole (11.4mm) instead of 9MM (.35) might be a little more scared.....
Hate to expose my old 1911A to the possibilty.... nor my 1911A1 "custom" gun.
Guess I'll be looking for a decent .45 FTF deal.....
kcshooter
Member
Flawed logic. This isn't a comparison of the "fear factor" of .45 over 9mm. Regardless, a carjacker would be just as likely to be or not be detered by a .22 or .45. People don't think like that. They aren't going to consider whether or not the hole pointing at them is big enough to be scared of, they are going to think that they have a gun pointing at them and react however they are going to react at that point regardless of the size of that gun.
"gosh, I better run, that's an 11.4mm hole!"
"hah, I'm not scared, that hole is only 9mm's!"
Being carjacked puts the BG within 5 feet of you. I could care less about caliber at that point. Nor could I care about how scared he is. I care about how well I could stop him from continuing his attack. At that distance, can anyone really say a 9mm isn't enough gun??
Handguns suck at killing people. Perhaps the .44 mag or a .500 S&W Mag might be more effective, but otherwise anything between .35"-.50" diameter, provided it has good ammunition, will perform about the same.
If you want to STOP someone dead in their tracks, grab a .45-70 or a 12ga with 1oz 3" magnum slugs. As long as you do your part of hitting them, I am sure either round will have NO difficulty stopping most unaltered persons in their tracks.
PCP addicts excluded, as you can probably draw and quarter them, and they'll still try to kill you...
For reference I have both 9mm and the 10mm Special (aka .40S&W) and feel confident with both, but prefer the 9mm.
If you want to STOP someone dead in their tracks, grab a .45-70 or a 12ga with 1oz 3" magnum slugs. As long as you do your part of hitting them, I am sure either round will have NO difficulty stopping most unaltered persons in their tracks.
PCP addicts excluded, as you can probably draw and quarter them, and they'll still try to kill you...
For reference I have both 9mm and the 10mm Special (aka .40S&W) and feel confident with both, but prefer the 9mm.
cliffy
member
Possibly Because
A 9mm bullet cannot hold a candle to a .45 ACP concerning Knock-Down power! I much prefer a .243 Winchester for total KNOCK-Down power, but no pistols are yet designed to handle the recoil of .243 Winnie-Poohs. A .454 Casull remains as the ultimate-practical pistol cartridge of firm management. Observe the number of concealable .45 ACP pistols available, and learn why. In rifles, extreme speed rules, but in pistols mass remains king. Two different entities require two different projectiles. cliffy
A 9mm bullet cannot hold a candle to a .45 ACP concerning Knock-Down power! I much prefer a .243 Winchester for total KNOCK-Down power, but no pistols are yet designed to handle the recoil of .243 Winnie-Poohs. A .454 Casull remains as the ultimate-practical pistol cartridge of firm management. Observe the number of concealable .45 ACP pistols available, and learn why. In rifles, extreme speed rules, but in pistols mass remains king. Two different entities require two different projectiles. cliffy
kcshooter
Member
::sigh::
There is NO SUCH THING as knock-down power from a handgun.
I don't know how many times this needs said. Apparently, quite a few.
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
I think cliffy meant KNOCK-Back POWER which is where the bad guy is lifted off his feet and knocked back by the bullet, preferibly into a plate-glass window. Clearly physics dictates only bullets at or above 10.749mm diameter are capable of transferring enough energy to the target on impact.Meowhead
BlindJustice
Member
Don't listen to Cliffy hey DUde there's a reason .45-70 is still regarded
as big medicine against Grizzly or Big Browns
and 454 Casull may be a good hunting round but it's not crap for quick repeat shots on target heck they've been saying that about full house .44
mag for years as well....
IMHO of course
now, with the recent development of 9MM LUger platforms geting smaller
it really makes .380 ACP a poor choice IMO because of the lesser bullet weight as well as velocity. I think the Springfield Armory EMP in 9MM LUger
as well as the SIg P239 are both great CCW options depending on whether
you like the COnd 1 carry, or a DA/SA platform. THey make the PPK/S seem an overweight wimp.... and they are both imo of course better in 9MM LUger than .40 S&W both being single stack and more concealbable as a result.
Randall
as big medicine against Grizzly or Big Browns
and 454 Casull may be a good hunting round but it's not crap for quick repeat shots on target heck they've been saying that about full house .44
mag for years as well....
IMHO of course
now, with the recent development of 9MM LUger platforms geting smaller
it really makes .380 ACP a poor choice IMO because of the lesser bullet weight as well as velocity. I think the Springfield Armory EMP in 9MM LUger
as well as the SIg P239 are both great CCW options depending on whether
you like the COnd 1 carry, or a DA/SA platform. THey make the PPK/S seem an overweight wimp.... and they are both imo of course better in 9MM LUger than .40 S&W both being single stack and more concealbable as a result.
Randall
cliffy
member
By Military Test
A .45 ACP retains a standard 100% knock-down when an adversary is hit in the shoulder, while a .357 Magnum offers 160% knock-down power with a shoulder-hit. What does a .454 Casull hit offer? I fret to guess. cliffy
A .45 ACP retains a standard 100% knock-down when an adversary is hit in the shoulder, while a .357 Magnum offers 160% knock-down power with a shoulder-hit. What does a .454 Casull hit offer? I fret to guess. cliffy
I am not down on 9MM.
I was never down or against 9MM firearms.
My first gun was a Glock in a Model 19C circa 1998.
Before that time frame, I used my late husband's 357Magnum revolver for home self defense. There was NO CCW back in that state at the time for mere serfs.
I would use what I love, handle well, clean easily and can shoot well. I would not care what 'other people thought' about my firearm caliber or the 'type of gun' that I used. It is my gun and my life. I am the one who relies on the gun in a self defense situation since I am alone most of the time.
I would use a gun that I can practice with OFTEN so if that meant a caliber in x, y or z --- so be it. YOU have to KNOW your gun and shoot WELL with your gun since YOUR life may depend on it someday.
I am more INTO single action revolvers at this time too. I would not think twice about shooting a 9MM again if need be. It is a good caliber for ME to use as my 45Colt aka long colt, my 357Magnum using both 357 and 38Special Plus P, my 22LR and 30-30 caliber firearms.
Catherine
I was never down or against 9MM firearms.
My first gun was a Glock in a Model 19C circa 1998.
Before that time frame, I used my late husband's 357Magnum revolver for home self defense. There was NO CCW back in that state at the time for mere serfs.
I would use what I love, handle well, clean easily and can shoot well. I would not care what 'other people thought' about my firearm caliber or the 'type of gun' that I used. It is my gun and my life. I am the one who relies on the gun in a self defense situation since I am alone most of the time.
I would use a gun that I can practice with OFTEN so if that meant a caliber in x, y or z --- so be it. YOU have to KNOW your gun and shoot WELL with your gun since YOUR life may depend on it someday.
I am more INTO single action revolvers at this time too. I would not think twice about shooting a 9MM again if need be. It is a good caliber for ME to use as my 45Colt aka long colt, my 357Magnum using both 357 and 38Special Plus P, my 22LR and 30-30 caliber firearms.
Catherine
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BlindJustice
Member
FYI - I've shot 124 gr. and 147 gr. Win. and Rem as well as Gold DOt and Golden saber. I like the lower noise of the 147s and found that instead of the usual approx 1000 fps I can get Double Tap ammo 9mm Luger with 147 gr. Speer Gold Dot JHPs at 1100 Fps and that's still just under supersonic.
I like the Double Tap .45 ACP 200 gr. Gold Dot JHPs at 1100 FPS as well.
If it was going to be in the back country I would look for some Hornady XTP JHPs +P in either CARTRIDGE.
Randall
I like the Double Tap .45 ACP 200 gr. Gold Dot JHPs at 1100 FPS as well.
If it was going to be in the back country I would look for some Hornady XTP JHPs +P in either CARTRIDGE.
Randall
I don't know about .454 Cassull but based on the above caliber data I calculate that (since 9mm = 0.354 inches) 9mm will give 158.65546218487394957983193277311% knock-down power with a shoulder hit, enough to knock a bad guy down and, when he stands up again, knock him down again but only slightly more than half way.cliffy said:
Mickstix
Member
I would of thought "Uncle's, co-worker's, cousin" was enough to give it away..
BikerRN
member
Who says we are?
It's my duty caliber, with 115 Grain +P+ JHP's. No matter the caliber, I still have to do my part and put the bullets where they need to go, even with my 45 ACP or my .357 Magnums.
BikerRN
Silvanus
Member
Blues Brother
Member
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 248
I am equally befuddled.
fletcher
Member
Guys, I don't think cliffy is being serious, just injecting some humor into a caliber thread.
If he is serious, I'm going to go cry in the corner over the future of the gun community.
If he is serious, I'm going to go cry in the corner over the future of the gun community.
I think they are down on 9mm's for the same reason some people are down on the .223 , the military boys arent getting good results. But thats because they shoot ball ammo aka FMJ. Now use hollow points or good soft points then things change in a big way. BTW cliffy,there are a few pistols chambered in .243 Win. most are single shots though.LOL.
BTW cliffy,there are a few pistols chambered in .243 Win. most are single shots though.LOL.- Status
