jim in Anchorage
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I don't remember Miami But I do remember a bank robbery shootout in California where LAPD had to "borrow" some AR's from a gun shop.
Why is the FBI's choice of gun...
- Thread starter jim in Anchorage
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Yeah lol
The FBI never tested or issued full power 10mm, the original and only load used by any agents was the FBI lite load.
Urey Patrick knew going in that full tilt boogie 10mm would be too much blast and recoil for the average agents and the original FBI tests were done with his handloads.
Guess neither one of mine got the memo.
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Deanimator
Member
Hardly. They latched onto... then dumped it after they bought some lousy pistols from S&W.
The FBI is prone to fads. I stopped paying them much mind years ago.
Deanimator
Member
Which was amusing in and of itself, given that in their mania to acquire AR-15s, they probably walked past whole racks of .300 Mags, .338 Mags, .458 Mags, and even .30-06s that would have done as well, if not MUCH better and quicker.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
Tom Givens noted that FBI shootings tend to be very similar to us civilian's shootings. They don't do bar fights, domestics or multiple traffic stops. Recently, the FBI did (or is going to) change their qualification program to focus more on 0 to 7 yard ranges as that was what they were seeing on their street shootings.
Worth paying attention to, IMHO.
Jenrick
Member
I can say definitively that the small female while usually not the best shooter to start with, thought I can point to quite a few who have come in great shooters, is normally NOT the problem cadet in a cadet class. Any adult human within the 5-95th percentile range has the strength to effectively run a duty pistol in any of the normal service calibers. If they listen to instructions and dry fire at home, they will be well on their way to shooting in the 80's and 90's with no problem. It's the male ego that usually causes all the problems.
Honestly the push for 9mm is really based on the knowledge that probably 80%-90% of cops are not gun people. Their level of proficiency, beyond the flat range qual course will be marginal at best, and anything I can do as an instructor to make it easier for them to win I'm all for. If I could find a .22 short that hit like a .45ACP I'd be in my Chief's office right now trying to get him to switch. The truth is muzzle blast and recoil are the two biggest detriments to accurate shooting out there, and anyway we can get those reduced the better officers will shoot.
-Jenrick
Llama Bob
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Well you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but for those of us who have plenty of experience accurately shooting all sorts of handguns, including things much bigger than would ever be used for personal defense, that argument holds no water. It is simply the lowest common denominator argument re-worded.
If you study the Miami shootout, the bad boy 9mm load was the Winchester Silvertip. The shootout would have ended with a newer decent 9mm round taking out Platt's heart but the Silvertip dumped a lot of energy going through his arm thus stopping short. Had it traveled an inch more, Platt's dead instantly no matter how criminally hopped up he was. It was a tactical nightmare, The FBI had M16 and MP5s better suited for this that never came into play but should have. To make themselves look better in the publics eye they adopted the 10mm even though a wheel gun ended the shootout. Then the ballistics testing started in earnest. Talk with an old FBI agent and he will usually tell you the truth, they blew it big time. (There weren't a lot of female agents 30 years ago)
While you definitely don't want to scuffle with any FBI agents let alone HRT or SWAT some REAL serious dudes are The US Marshals SOG.
ACP
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I think the question has been answered by now -- the FBI does a lot of in-depth testing.
The OP should really study up on the Miami shootout. I believe more than anything that incident showed how tactics and personal bravery trump caliber and, to some extent, capacity. The agent who ended the battle was already wounded and shot both perps at essentially point blank range using, as I recall, a S&W 586 loaded with 38 Special LSWCHP.
The OP should really study up on the Miami shootout. I believe more than anything that incident showed how tactics and personal bravery trump caliber and, to some extent, capacity. The agent who ended the battle was already wounded and shot both perps at essentially point blank range using, as I recall, a S&W 586 loaded with 38 Special LSWCHP.
Instead of quoting ACPs whole post I will just post below it. Special Agent Edmundo Mireles, Jr. was seriously injured and walked up to perps the car in an act of pure bravery and ended it with 5 hits from his S&W 686.
It was such a public stain on the FBI that it led to a whole bunch of changes, most notably all auto pistols in 10mm and an advanced ballistics program. That is "Why is the FBI's choice of gun given so much attention". In reality it should be "Why is the FBI's choice of AMMO given so much attention?"
Because they spend a lot of time and money testing guns but mostly ammo loads. They have a budget for this that is unmatched by any other entity.
Long story short I was in a 24 hour CVS at about 4AM a couple of years ago. There was an older man who was well dressed and his jacket was open. I could see he was carrying in a shoulder holster. I asked him if he was a local PD detective and he said no, I'm FBI. Like a fool I responded "Yeah right". He showed me his honest to goodness FBI badge and I said I'm really sorry. "Have you robbed a bank lately"? Umm No. Then don't sweat it. Condensed version there was a Dunkin Donuts in the same mini mall and I asked him if wanted to sit down and have some coffee and donuts, my treat for insulting him. He said sure and thus began my schooling into FBI protocol.
Long story short, he was carrying a wheel gun, the old timers before a certain date are allowed to carry what they seem fit. They are grandfathered in. He said if his machine gun of choice was a Thompson sub gun when they made the rule, he could have that in his trunk. He had a 686 snubbie and that was his primary sidearm. We talked about the Miami shootout and I cannot repeat his exact words because of this forums decorum. He recommended some books to read and said that actually nobody REALLY knows what went down that day, it was complete chaos and a tactical blunder on the FBIs part. The other 6 agents should have never been separated and cut off. They had the heavy firepower that would have ending it quickly.
Anyway every now and then I run into him. He will be retiring later this year. He trusts his .357 magnum and has never had to shoot it at anyone. It has really been a very cool learning experience and led to many insights on the FBI. They are definitely not "armed accountants". They have a budget just like anybody else. For the newer members of the FBI, yes they are given guns. That is bid out just like everything else. They don't have a blank check. When the FBI purchases weapons they buy 15,000. Everybody wants that contract.
The things you learn when you are buying a bottle of aspirin at 4AM.
It was such a public stain on the FBI that it led to a whole bunch of changes, most notably all auto pistols in 10mm and an advanced ballistics program. That is "Why is the FBI's choice of gun given so much attention". In reality it should be "Why is the FBI's choice of AMMO given so much attention?"
Because they spend a lot of time and money testing guns but mostly ammo loads. They have a budget for this that is unmatched by any other entity.
Long story short I was in a 24 hour CVS at about 4AM a couple of years ago. There was an older man who was well dressed and his jacket was open. I could see he was carrying in a shoulder holster. I asked him if he was a local PD detective and he said no, I'm FBI. Like a fool I responded "Yeah right". He showed me his honest to goodness FBI badge and I said I'm really sorry. "Have you robbed a bank lately"? Umm No. Then don't sweat it. Condensed version there was a Dunkin Donuts in the same mini mall and I asked him if wanted to sit down and have some coffee and donuts, my treat for insulting him. He said sure and thus began my schooling into FBI protocol.
Long story short, he was carrying a wheel gun, the old timers before a certain date are allowed to carry what they seem fit. They are grandfathered in. He said if his machine gun of choice was a Thompson sub gun when they made the rule, he could have that in his trunk. He had a 686 snubbie and that was his primary sidearm. We talked about the Miami shootout and I cannot repeat his exact words because of this forums decorum. He recommended some books to read and said that actually nobody REALLY knows what went down that day, it was complete chaos and a tactical blunder on the FBIs part. The other 6 agents should have never been separated and cut off. They had the heavy firepower that would have ending it quickly.
Anyway every now and then I run into him. He will be retiring later this year. He trusts his .357 magnum and has never had to shoot it at anyone. It has really been a very cool learning experience and led to many insights on the FBI. They are definitely not "armed accountants". They have a budget just like anybody else. For the newer members of the FBI, yes they are given guns. That is bid out just like everything else. They don't have a blank check. When the FBI purchases weapons they buy 15,000. Everybody wants that contract.
The things you learn when you are buying a bottle of aspirin at 4AM.
springer99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kozak6 View Post
I seem to recall an incident in Miami in 1986...
And that would be?
Originally Posted by kozak6 View Post
I seem to recall an incident in Miami in 1986...
And that would be?
30 years ago.
Posted by Jenrick:
It's a simple matter of Newtonian physics.
The reason that is important is that the desired result of hitting something critical inside that rushing body and doing so timely is a stochastic process. The shooter is not aiming at something specific that he or she deems critical--it's essentially a matter of chance.
I have to credit Rob Pincus, who changed from the .40 to the 9MM. for this: everyone, no matter how practiced, can shoot more controlled shots in the same amount of time with a 9MM than with a .40 of the same design.
It's a simple matter of Newtonian physics.
The reason that is important is that the desired result of hitting something critical inside that rushing body and doing so timely is a stochastic process. The shooter is not aiming at something specific that he or she deems critical--it's essentially a matter of chance.
BSA1
member
In addition it is possible for us to duplicate the FBI’s testing media and method. Making gel calibrated to FBI standard can be done at home and some of the material such as denim is easily found in stores.
The Winchester Silvertip was not “bad” ammunition. The bullet performed exactly as it was designed to do. It delivered a lethal hit which many confuse with one shot instant stop. All this proves is there is no “magic” bullet that will be one shot spot under all conditions.
HUH??? Your comment about a “newer decent round” shows your lack of knowledge of the type of ammunition and bullet designs made in the early ‘80’s.
Most experts agree the disaster was a result of poor tactics and preparation. The agents knew how violent and the weapons Platt and Matix were using yet they brought handguns to a rifle fight.
Just as an aside:Kleanbore said:
Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stochastic
I'm pretty good with odd and arcane words, so I figure if I had to look it up, I'm probably not alone.
Potatohead
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Those guys were really prepared too, if I have my bank robbery shootout suspects straight..I believe they were the fellas with head to toe kevlar who absorbed umpteen rounds before they finally went down.
Hopefully Im not confusing that one with the other heavily prepared fella who ended up shooting himself in the head for the camera as a grand finale during one of those shootouts. Cant recall. Off topic anyway probably.
kBob
Member
Interesting discussion. Much of it uninformed with some nuggets thrown in.
Not long before the Miami shootout there had been a suit against FBI regarding the requirement for Agents to Qualify with a specific S&W revolver frame size. Some women had difficulty making the grade with that size.
Eventually it was decided that the smaller frame size was allowed.
Inter the 9x19mm and again there were issues with folks qualifying. It was decided that though the school would teach and encourage the use of the new autos that agents could continue to use revolvers of both sizes.
All the FBI cars involved in the Miami shooting had both body armor and support weapons in the trunks.
The Agent in charge at the scene made the discussion to stop the bad guys before they got onto roads that he felt would lead to more citizens being in danger when the stop occurred. He made the bump that stopped the bad guys car with the idea of reducing the possibility of citizen's being injured.
Unfortunately he did this while not wearing his revolver, as he had taken it off and stuffed it in the crack between the seat and its back on the passenger side.
On impact the revolver slid onto the floorboard on the passenger side and in the bumping around ended up under the seat.
During the critical seconds when that revolver alone might have stopped the action with shots all within five meters, the agent was, rather than shooting across the hood of his car, scrambling to recover his revolver.
He paid greatly for his error with permanent injuries that few here would care to think about.
Much was made later of the bad guy that had an "assault rifle", a Mini-14. His ability to hold off so many FBI agents and do so much damage was pointed to as a reason to ban such firearms. The rifle was obtained by murdering its original owner at an informal range, so it was argued NONE should have them.
To an extent the selection of 10mm was a response to the bad guys having such "firepower", sort of like the FBI was arming its agents with a one hand "assault rifle"
Among the reason for ditching 10 mm was the choice of the S&W guns that had been bought. An agent doing a prisoner transfer ( oddly again in Miami) discovered that by manipulating the safety while clearing the weapon it was possible to render the pistol non functional until actual repairs could be made.
The School then did tests and found this was not unique to that agent's pistol and the pistol withdrawn from service and the earlier 9 mm reissued as it was thought the reliability issue was worth addressing first.
FBI liked Dr. Fackler's Gel work because it was repeatable. Science needs to be repeatable.
Marshal and Sanow's street numbers certainly deserve a look.......but do not take into account a host of variables.
Not surprisingly M&S and Dr. Fackler do on occasion agree.
As has been said politics at one level or another can influence FBI purchases and issue of equipment.......but the studies produced by FBI on ammunition effects are science.
As to handgun choice......I would not choose an axe because the forest service likes it and issues it, or a car because the Police department drives them.
The FBI's choice of firearms is the FBI's. The data produced on ammunition effects is worth paying attention to.
-kBob
Not long before the Miami shootout there had been a suit against FBI regarding the requirement for Agents to Qualify with a specific S&W revolver frame size. Some women had difficulty making the grade with that size.
Eventually it was decided that the smaller frame size was allowed.
Inter the 9x19mm and again there were issues with folks qualifying. It was decided that though the school would teach and encourage the use of the new autos that agents could continue to use revolvers of both sizes.
All the FBI cars involved in the Miami shooting had both body armor and support weapons in the trunks.
The Agent in charge at the scene made the discussion to stop the bad guys before they got onto roads that he felt would lead to more citizens being in danger when the stop occurred. He made the bump that stopped the bad guys car with the idea of reducing the possibility of citizen's being injured.
Unfortunately he did this while not wearing his revolver, as he had taken it off and stuffed it in the crack between the seat and its back on the passenger side.
On impact the revolver slid onto the floorboard on the passenger side and in the bumping around ended up under the seat.
During the critical seconds when that revolver alone might have stopped the action with shots all within five meters, the agent was, rather than shooting across the hood of his car, scrambling to recover his revolver.
He paid greatly for his error with permanent injuries that few here would care to think about.
Much was made later of the bad guy that had an "assault rifle", a Mini-14. His ability to hold off so many FBI agents and do so much damage was pointed to as a reason to ban such firearms. The rifle was obtained by murdering its original owner at an informal range, so it was argued NONE should have them.
To an extent the selection of 10mm was a response to the bad guys having such "firepower", sort of like the FBI was arming its agents with a one hand "assault rifle"
Among the reason for ditching 10 mm was the choice of the S&W guns that had been bought. An agent doing a prisoner transfer ( oddly again in Miami) discovered that by manipulating the safety while clearing the weapon it was possible to render the pistol non functional until actual repairs could be made.
The School then did tests and found this was not unique to that agent's pistol and the pistol withdrawn from service and the earlier 9 mm reissued as it was thought the reliability issue was worth addressing first.
FBI liked Dr. Fackler's Gel work because it was repeatable. Science needs to be repeatable.
Marshal and Sanow's street numbers certainly deserve a look.......but do not take into account a host of variables.
Not surprisingly M&S and Dr. Fackler do on occasion agree.
As has been said politics at one level or another can influence FBI purchases and issue of equipment.......but the studies produced by FBI on ammunition effects are science.
As to handgun choice......I would not choose an axe because the forest service likes it and issues it, or a car because the Police department drives them.
The FBI's choice of firearms is the FBI's. The data produced on ammunition effects is worth paying attention to.
-kBob
At the time it was great ammunition. The problem is it was an aluminum jacketed bullet that was made for rapid expansion on impact long before the FBI did ballistic testing. The FBI junked the Silvertip in 1987 because it didn't do what it was supposed to. Hitting an arm first was never taken into consideration. It dumped a lot of energy expanding through an arm, read some of the technical papers or books on the 1986 shootout. Dumping a lot of energy into Platt's arm slowed the bullet or it would have been a "one shot instant stop". No heart, no life. The wound was indeed fatal, it had gone through a lung but now Platt had to bleed out. A modern round would have gone the extra distance and taken Platt's heart out. Platt would have been dead as dirt.
The Silvertip was the only game in town back then so no lack of knowledge on my part.
Yes there were many tactical mistakes made.
kBob has it 100% correct. Pay CLOSE attention to the ammunition tests because how a bullet reacts from a 4" barrel is going to be pretty close regardless of the gun it's fired from. IWO don't worry much about the guns the FBI carries but pay heed to the ammo they are loaded with.
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Posted by Spats McGee:
Thanks, Spats. It is the second definition to which I was referring.
The point is that when one shoots at a rapidly moving and weaving, irregularly shaped bag that is opaque, whether any one bullet will happen to strike a small, moving, concealed vital body part inside that bag is largely a matter of chance.
In the latest episode of The Best Defense, Mike Seeklander addresses the age old question of which targets to shoot in what order in the event of an attack by multiple attackers,
He explains why he does not recommend shooting each once before shooting any of them a second time.
In one hypothetical scenario, he suggests shooting the first target three times COM.
He poses the question, "will three shots do the job?" He answers his own question with "I don't know, but I think the odds are better than I would have of stopping him with one shot". (Some slight approximation in that last clause--working from memory here.)
Thanks, Spats. It is the second definition to which I was referring.
The point is that when one shoots at a rapidly moving and weaving, irregularly shaped bag that is opaque, whether any one bullet will happen to strike a small, moving, concealed vital body part inside that bag is largely a matter of chance.
In the latest episode of The Best Defense, Mike Seeklander addresses the age old question of which targets to shoot in what order in the event of an attack by multiple attackers,
He explains why he does not recommend shooting each once before shooting any of them a second time.
In one hypothetical scenario, he suggests shooting the first target three times COM.
He poses the question, "will three shots do the job?" He answers his own question with "I don't know, but I think the odds are better than I would have of stopping him with one shot". (Some slight approximation in that last clause--working from memory here.)
Archie
Member
The FBI (under a non partisan administration and Attorney General) are a generally competent organization of investigators and technicians.
However, their firearms reputation derives primarily from two factors: A great P. R. ability and the ability to shield themselves from negative publicity.
I know several and find them to be motivated, competent and fairly decent people. The organization - like many others - tend to think more of the 'good of the agency' than the sometimes ugly truth.
I am aware of the paper released announcing the change to 9mm pistols for issue. I am also retired from thirty-two years of federal service and the 'jargon'. I have my reservations about the 'purity' of the announcement. I am quite sure the declarations and findings are all correct; just as I am sure the assumptions and goals were pre-determined at high level with a good deal of political correctness factoring into the pre-test criteria and a minimal amount of firearms or ammunition efficiency.
But all of you can believe anything you want.
However, their firearms reputation derives primarily from two factors: A great P. R. ability and the ability to shield themselves from negative publicity.
I know several and find them to be motivated, competent and fairly decent people. The organization - like many others - tend to think more of the 'good of the agency' than the sometimes ugly truth.
I am aware of the paper released announcing the change to 9mm pistols for issue. I am also retired from thirty-two years of federal service and the 'jargon'. I have my reservations about the 'purity' of the announcement. I am quite sure the declarations and findings are all correct; just as I am sure the assumptions and goals were pre-determined at high level with a good deal of political correctness factoring into the pre-test criteria and a minimal amount of firearms or ammunition efficiency.
But all of you can believe anything you want.
Posted by Archie:
I have no idea what you mean by "their firearms reputation", but whatever it is, what makes you believe that it "derives primarily" from "great P. R. ability and the ability to shield themselves from negative publicity"?
Whatever that means.
It means the tail "wags the dog"
In the late 80s the FBI wanted to blame the 9mm boom HWFE 12" minimum and 18" is better.
Now the FBI wants to go back to the 9mm boom a new paper where just hitting 12" minimum is good enough and the hole size doesn't really matter.
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