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Why is there no +P 147 grain 9mm?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Elkins45, May 3, 2019.

  1. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    I was ammo shopping this morning and noticed that all of the +P 9mm ammo listed had either 115 or 124 grain bullets. I didn’t see any 147 grain +P and it made me wonder why. Is it possibly because the standard pressure 147 grain ammo is supposed to stay subsonic?

    Just curious.
     
  2. TomJ
    • Contributing Member

    TomJ Contributing Member

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    There's a HST 147 grain +P.
     
  3. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    It exists, but its relative lack of popularity is probably because most people who are buying 147 9mm are people who have bought 100% into the Facklerite analysis of handgun incapacitation, which says that the only purpose of velocity is to generate sufficient penetration and drive expansion to the desired extent. The higher sectional density of 147's means that these parameter are pretty easily met without cranking up velocity.

    People who think KE plays a part in incapacitation are chasing velocity with 115's and 124's. People who think momentum is a predictor of ultimate performance aren't looking at 9mm much at all.

    A higher-velocity 147 is sort of like the pork chop at the vegan restaurant... most people who walk in the front door aren't interested in it. But +P data is available for 9mm from some data sources. For example: http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/WPHandloading-Guide-7.0-Web-REV.pdf
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2019
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  4. Buzznrose

    Buzznrose Member

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  5. C0untZer0

    C0untZer0 Member

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    Because 147gr +P+ made it obsolete ?


    tnoutdoors9 147 plu P plus.png


     
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  6. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

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    You have to remember 147 gr originally came out to be subsonic (roughly 330 meters or 1100 fps) for use with silencers. Most factory 147 gr subsonic I've shot goes 950-1000 fps and there's not much of a difference between a 3" pistol or 16" carbine in velocity.
     
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  7. C0untZer0

    C0untZer0 Member

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    Someone here said that to get more velocity out of a carbine shooting 147gr +P, you'd need a closed bolt or a heavier bolt. The argument they made was that much of the energy in the 147gr +P was expended on just making the bolt go back at a higher velocity.

    I guess too that roller-delayed blowback would also be better than straight blowback for getting higher velocity from the 147gr +P out of a carbine.
     
  8. sigarms228

    sigarms228 Member

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    Yep, my go to SD ammo including for my Walther PPS which is a sweet shooter using it. Lucky Gunner ammo test shows almost the same expansion as regular HST 147 but better penetration due to about 50 FPS increase in muzzle velocity. I bought mine in 50 round boxes meant for law enforcement, which are harder to get now, and don't know how readily available it is in the 20 round package.
     
  9. paulsj

    paulsj Member

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    There is such a thing as .40 S&W.
     
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  10. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    147 gr hardcast, 1100 fps.

    https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=389

    Stops bear. Scroll to bottom for story.

    The original 147 gr loads got a bad reputation for not impacting fast enough for reliable expansion. But with modern loads that problem has been solved. If you believe the FBI their testing shows modern 147 gr loads at about 1000 fps provide the most effective option for 9mm shooters. They made the change, and I'm seriously considering changing to the same ammo.
     
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  11. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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  12. Drail

    Drail Member

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    "+P" is nothing but marketing. Standard loads are really all that is necessary if you can hit your target. The F.B.I. are not firearm or ammo experts by any stretch of the imagination. I have always found it amusing to watch people buy the lightest plastic/alloy pistol they can buy and then insist on using the heaviest load they can buy for it. Shooting +P loads in a flyweight gun is a great way to learn how to flinch like an real "expert".........
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2019
  13. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    This is my GOTO 9mm ammo





     
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  14. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    This is my GOTO .40 S&W. The ballistics are VERY similar to the 9mm HST Tactical 147 gr.







     
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  15. 94045

    94045 Member

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    It's been my experience that the bullets are often designed for the standard pressure.
    In a Duty Length Handgun you may get 0.62" and 17" of penetration. Bump it to +P and the pedals fold back farther and you end up with 0.58" and 19" of penetration.

    The place this doesn't hold is shorter barreled handguns where the +P helps get the bullet back into the optimum envelope. Of course this introduces it's own set of issues in small handguns.

    Controlled Expansion Bullets (Like XTP) and Bullets unique to only one round (Like Federal Tactile Bonded 135 +P) are another exception.

    I tend to pick a round that meets;
    1. Penetration
    2. Expansion
    3. Recoil
    4. Expense
    In that order and the parameters may vary according to the application.

    .380 2.75" - Hornady XTP 90
    9mm 3.125" - Federal Micro HST 150
    9mm 4" - Fed Tac Bonded 135 +P
    .40 4" - Rem GS 180
    .45 3.3" - Rem GS 185
     
  16. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Nonsense.
    SAAMI has specs on ammunition manufactured in the United States. https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf
    "+P" is not "nothing but marketing", but is differentiated from standard pressure rounds because it is loaded to higher pressures to achieve a higher velocity.

    Now, "+P+" ? That's another story. SAAMI doesn't publish specs on +P+, so some manufacturers will use that designation for ammunition that may exceed SAAMI +P specs. Notice "may exceed"...…"+P+ is purely "nothing but marketing".


    Stopping a threat isn't just being able to "hit your target". If that was true firearm and cartridge development would have ended at .22Short.
    Bad guys drive cars, wear body armor and hide behind cover. "Standard loads" may not provide the penetration necessary to penetrate windshields, heavy clothing or sheetrock.



    Really?:rofl:




    "Flinch" is a training problem that can be corrected and isn't caused by +P being on the headstamp.
     
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  17. Drail

    Drail Member

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    Really.
     
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  18. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Maybe not, and as the legendary Patrick Swazey said in that immortal B-movie classic, opinions vary -- and I'll certainly be assigning more credibility to that agency's research over, say, what I read on the internet. Y'all may think I'm just smoking something that's legal up here now, but there's some smart cats working for the FBI.

    Really.
     
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  19. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

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    Apparently neither is the ATF.
     
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  20. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    And that is relevant to the thread how?
     
  21. Insignificant bill

    Insignificant bill Member

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    The 147 gr jhp I use gets great penetration and expansion in tests. My pistol can shoot +p but I stay away from it.
     
  22. 94045

    94045 Member

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    Flinch - What you develop after firing a Scandium J-Frame with full house .357 Magnum Loads.
     
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  23. CWL

    CWL Member

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    Historically, 147gr 9mm was originally manufactured to operate subguns with their heavier bolts/springs. These were already plenty hot and could even damage some pistols.

    +p and +p+ came much later, and there was no standardization to them anyways and IMHO, probably only useful in short barrel pistols.
     
  24. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    SAAMI has had specs (standardization) for +P for DECADES.
     
  25. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    Federal's P9HST4 147gr +P isn't presently listed in their Law Enforcement catalog. Maybe that explains why it's listed at so many discount ammo dealers at the moment?
    https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/federal/handgun/default.aspx

    When it was a cataloged item the P9HST4 147gr +P load produced a whopping 50 fps (and 34 ft/lbs) more than their standard pressure 147gr P9HST2 load. What's the real world benefit? Why a higher pressure load to maybe realize another 50fps at the muzzle and another 34 ft/lbs?

    The standard pressure P9HST4 147gr load is very popular among LE.

    Of course, so is their P9HST3 124gr +P load, so by offering both popular bullet weights and loads Federal can enjoy getting a little more of their share of the LE/Gov ammo pie. ;)
     
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