Goblin
Member
Are they too difficult to mass produce? I think it would be nice to own a sturdy dble rifle in a major caliber made by Remington or Ruger or whomever.Would there just not be enuff demand for them in America?
Why No Affordable Dble Rifles?
- Thread starter Goblin
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Gtscotty
Member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2007
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I think an economical method for regulating the barrels could be devised if manufacturers thought there would be enough of a market to make the Engineering investment worthwhile. The fact that none of the big firearms companies have taken a stab at it is probably a good indicator that they don't think they could sell enough product to make the effort viable.
It's too bad though, I too would love to have a decent modern double rifle.
It's too bad though, I too would love to have a decent modern double rifle.
Jim Watson
Member
I have been reading since the 1950s that "modern machine tools" would make double guns, rifle and shotgun, "affordable" by taking a lot of the hand fitting out. Hasn't happened yet. Largely because the market is too small for anybody to bother doing the R&D and tooling up for it.
And maybe because the assumption is wrong. Look at the precision machine tool company's Cabot pistol; they charge more for it, not less.
Or maybe because by the time you got through, the product would not look traditional. The Valmet O/U rifles and combination guns were not expensive as such things go, but you just could not visualize Stewart Granger on safari with one.
And maybe because the assumption is wrong. Look at the precision machine tool company's Cabot pistol; they charge more for it, not less.
Or maybe because by the time you got through, the product would not look traditional. The Valmet O/U rifles and combination guns were not expensive as such things go, but you just could not visualize Stewart Granger on safari with one.
DM~
Member
Shortcuts have been tried over and over through the years, and those that try them always fail. WHY? Because there is NO shortcut to some parts of mfg... BBl regulation is one place you can't shortcut, this has been proven over and over, the last time by Sabatti. They failed mizzerable and it cost THEM and Cabella's a LOT of money.
If you want a DR to shoot, that shoots pretty good and made from AT LEAST decent materials, get a Baikal DR. Some were sold with Remington on them, IF that makes you feel better.
They aren't too bad. for a "knock around" S&S DR, i like mine...
BTW, the Valmets mentioned, are pretty good quality, but they are O/U's.
DM
If you want a DR to shoot, that shoots pretty good and made from AT LEAST decent materials, get a Baikal DR. Some were sold with Remington on them, IF that makes you feel better.
They aren't too bad. for a "knock around" S&S DR, i like mine...
BTW, the Valmets mentioned, are pretty good quality, but they are O/U's.
DM
KSCCHTrainer
Member
Local gun store near me has a Baikal S-S in 45-70 on the shelf. It had pretty decent fit and finish. Price was around $600 if I remember correctly. Wasn't in the market for a 45-70, but if I could find one in .308 I might consider it.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Even if it were possible to make a "good" double rifle for $1000-$1500, the market for it is not there. Just watching these forums you see how many are obsessed with gilt-edged accuracy and don't want to pay anything for it. Most are also wanting (not necessarily needing) rifles capable of 400yd shots across a prairie or beanfield. A double rifle offers neither of those things. Personally, I would go absolute crazy for a 6lb .32-20 double rook rifle but I'd be the only one standing in line for it.
I'd love a double in 303 or 375 flanged. And for $25,000 I can have one...
They are bespoke hand built niche firearms and those that make them do not need the support of the unwashed masses to make a living. But man it would be nice...
They are bespoke hand built niche firearms and those that make them do not need the support of the unwashed masses to make a living. But man it would be nice...
WardenWolf
member
There's the Baikals, which are fairly well-regarded.
Steel Horse Rider
Member
I personally don't think there is a demand for a double barreled rifle. What would be the purpose? To me that type of thing falls under the "curiosity" column and does not reach the level of sales for the investment in mass production.
DM~
Member
You can buy a VERY NICE DR for around 5K, starting with Chapuis.
For under 10K there's all kinds of them, even "bespoke"... Start with Verney Carron they are EXCELLENT! OR Bailey Bradshaw...
Another "less than 10K" DR is Searcy and there are many more for around 10K.
SLIGHTLY used will get you some GREAT DR's at less than 10K, you just don't have to spend 25K to get quality!
For those that say there's no market, all the above and more are backordered, so someone is buying them!
DM
For under 10K there's all kinds of them, even "bespoke"... Start with Verney Carron they are EXCELLENT! OR Bailey Bradshaw...
Another "less than 10K" DR is Searcy and there are many more for around 10K.
SLIGHTLY used will get you some GREAT DR's at less than 10K, you just don't have to spend 25K to get quality!
For those that say there's no market, all the above and more are backordered, so someone is buying them!
DM
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WardenWolf
member
Not always true. I've seen Baikal .30-06 and .308 doubles. Baikal also has some interesting combo guns such as .308 / 12 gauge.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
No, folks who go on safari typically earn their money too and it's just as green as yours. I'm saving for a trip to Africa and I sure as hell don't have "money to burn". Fact is, you can spend several days hunting several species of plains game for less than the cost of a western elk hunt.
And how many guns do they build a year, a couple hundred? A major manufacturer would have to be able to sell thousands every year and if there is enough market to support that, I'd be shocked.
DM~
Member
I responded to a reply that there's NO market for DR's, but there IS, even if it's only in the hundreds....
I have DR's and some of my friends have DR's, i'm NOT rich and my friends aren't either. We just like that type of rifle and have been willing to SAVE to get one.
DR
I have DR's and some of my friends have DR's, i'm NOT rich and my friends aren't either. We just like that type of rifle and have been willing to SAVE to get one.
DR
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
That's how I meant it. I know 'some' guys are still buying them, I just don't think there is enough demand for one in the price range we're talking about. With the appropriate level of quality for that price range. In other words, the guys buying doubles don't want a $1000 one and the guys buying $500-$1000 rifles don't want a double. Unless I'm just completely misreading folks.
Therein lies the difference. It's not that most can't afford such a thing but that most are not willing to sacrifice and save and spend that much on a single firearm. I'm afraid that puts those who do in the minority.
DM~
Member
Well, i have to say, i'm AMAZED at what folks will put into AR's and lots of folks here have several. Some have very expensive handguns too...
I guess that's what makes the world go around...
DM
I guess that's what makes the world go around...
DM
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Not gonna argue with that, not after seeing SCAR rifles going for double what should when the current panic started. Personally, if I'm paying $5000 for any firearm it better have fine walnut and/or ivory!
Regulating two shotgun barrels to put PATTERNS on top of each other at 30m (or whatever they're regulated for) is expensive. Regulating two rifle barrels to put BULLETS on top of each other at 100m (or whatever it is rifle barrels get regulated for) much more expensive.
The purpose is the need for two shots that are not dependent on a breeching mechanism to operate. A double rifle is actually two single shot rifles together. Either one can be used without any assistance from the other and that is the reason the double was preferred for dangerous game. Per John Pondoro Taylor in African Rifles and Cartridges.
Nicely said. Comments like "'Cuz only people with money to burn go on safari?" are a tale as old as time, the purview of the nattering knitting circle or the nosy neighbor on the other side of the fence. Grown men should have enough self-insight to realize this comment comes from envy, & is not High Road material. This is "crab mentality", from the old Filipino cautionary tale:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality
While i am sure that there is the rare instance of he who inherited/cheated/stole/won the lottery/took candy from babies & then went on safari, I am certain that the vast majority are hard-working folk who grew up reading Hemingway, Ruark, & Capstick, had the dream to go to Africa, saved their pennies, sacrificed other things, & achieved the goal of going.
To those who have been on safari, i salute you, & this young man hopes one day to save enough money to go & see it for himself.
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Goblin
Member
Yeah....ever since I first read Capstick I've wanted to hunt a Cape Buff!
- Joined
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In the history of the double rifle there has never been a greater demand or a greater number of manufacturers than there is right here right now. Not to mention double rifles have never been cheaper to buy comparing the value of money today to the past.
The cheapest quality reliable double you can own is the Chapuis UGEX in 9.3x74R as mentioned above for about 5k. The Sabatti is seriously hit or miss on quality and regulation. I wouldn't own one. The Baikal is what it is, crude, primitive and I'm guessing they are going to come off face fairly rapidly with heavy use. But they really are a pretty cool little toy for price if a guy just has to have a double to play with. Some simply will not regulate, some shoot pretty good. If you find a used one that is super cheap I'd lay even odds on the fact that it's not going to regulate.
A true bespoke double rifle is entirely hand fitted and takes thousands of man hours to build and finish and regulate and that is why they cost what they do. A kreighoff is almost entirely done on a CNC and they still run from about 8k up.
I've played with some old English rifles and they are beautiful pieces of art. I've held in my own sweaty little mitts a slim petite Purdy and a very similar Holland and Holland royal grade the first in 9.3x74R the other a .375 Flanged magnum the 9.3 was as slender and quick as a nice .410 shot gun and weighed about 7lbs the H&H
was an 8lb rifle and also unearthly in it's slim and quick profile and feel. Either of those rifles would set you back about $80 to 100K. Cool but you are paying for the name and basically a rare piece of art not a using rifle though some guys in a different tax bracket from most of us do use them.
For my purpose and for what I use my rifles for I'd be perfectly happy with a modern copy in the form of a Chapuis almost as light, almost as nice handling not nearly as sexy, but I'm not dating the rifle I'm shooting and hunting with it. the price barrier for a quality well regulated, working, useable double seems to be about 5k and up in the small bores. In the large bores it's about 10k and up for just about 10K you can have a no nonsense well made working big bore double. If you want some bells and whistles like nice wood, sear blocking safeties, articulated front trigger, cocking indicators you start at abut 15K.
I've been at the range and actually had a guy shooting an $8,000 .50 BMG give me crap about my expensive double which I've got less money into than his rifle. But people see a nice looking double and the perception and the stereo type is that the owner must be loaded. I'd venture to say that many folks could clear out 5 or 6 safe queens and be within striking range of a good big bore double if they really wanted one.
Heck I sold an Rock River AR 18" ATH for 1/3 of what a new Searcy field grade .470NE ($8,400 USD new) costs during the panic. Now that is what I consider stupid money. Your double will hold or gain value every year. The panic purchased AR was money wasted you can buy that same rifle new for 30% of what I sold it for.
If a guy had about ten spare $100 dollar bills to spread around the local gun shops in Kenya, Rhodesia and parts of India in the 70's and early 80's when Kynoch quit making NE ammo and double rifles were considered worthless you could have bought 8 or 9 top end British doubles and be retiring on what you could sell those rifles for today. There have been some folks make a A LOT of money by knowing how to buy the right doubles and hanging on to them until the time was right.
The cheapest quality reliable double you can own is the Chapuis UGEX in 9.3x74R as mentioned above for about 5k. The Sabatti is seriously hit or miss on quality and regulation. I wouldn't own one. The Baikal is what it is, crude, primitive and I'm guessing they are going to come off face fairly rapidly with heavy use. But they really are a pretty cool little toy for price if a guy just has to have a double to play with. Some simply will not regulate, some shoot pretty good. If you find a used one that is super cheap I'd lay even odds on the fact that it's not going to regulate.
A true bespoke double rifle is entirely hand fitted and takes thousands of man hours to build and finish and regulate and that is why they cost what they do. A kreighoff is almost entirely done on a CNC and they still run from about 8k up.
I've played with some old English rifles and they are beautiful pieces of art. I've held in my own sweaty little mitts a slim petite Purdy and a very similar Holland and Holland royal grade the first in 9.3x74R the other a .375 Flanged magnum the 9.3 was as slender and quick as a nice .410 shot gun and weighed about 7lbs the H&H
was an 8lb rifle and also unearthly in it's slim and quick profile and feel. Either of those rifles would set you back about $80 to 100K. Cool but you are paying for the name and basically a rare piece of art not a using rifle though some guys in a different tax bracket from most of us do use them.
For my purpose and for what I use my rifles for I'd be perfectly happy with a modern copy in the form of a Chapuis almost as light, almost as nice handling not nearly as sexy, but I'm not dating the rifle I'm shooting and hunting with it. the price barrier for a quality well regulated, working, useable double seems to be about 5k and up in the small bores. In the large bores it's about 10k and up for just about 10K you can have a no nonsense well made working big bore double. If you want some bells and whistles like nice wood, sear blocking safeties, articulated front trigger, cocking indicators you start at abut 15K.
I've been at the range and actually had a guy shooting an $8,000 .50 BMG give me crap about my expensive double which I've got less money into than his rifle. But people see a nice looking double and the perception and the stereo type is that the owner must be loaded. I'd venture to say that many folks could clear out 5 or 6 safe queens and be within striking range of a good big bore double if they really wanted one.
Heck I sold an Rock River AR 18" ATH for 1/3 of what a new Searcy field grade .470NE ($8,400 USD new) costs during the panic. Now that is what I consider stupid money. Your double will hold or gain value every year. The panic purchased AR was money wasted you can buy that same rifle new for 30% of what I sold it for.
If a guy had about ten spare $100 dollar bills to spread around the local gun shops in Kenya, Rhodesia and parts of India in the 70's and early 80's when Kynoch quit making NE ammo and double rifles were considered worthless you could have bought 8 or 9 top end British doubles and be retiring on what you could sell those rifles for today. There have been some folks make a A LOT of money by knowing how to buy the right doubles and hanging on to them until the time was right.
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