Why No Affordable Dble Rifles?

[jakk280rem]

Two reasons I can think of off the top of my head:

Economy of scale. Not enough people want double guns to male it worth it to tool up an assembly plant to make enough of them to makeep them affordable.

The amount of hand work needed to regulate a multiple barrel firearm, in such a manner as to make it reliable and durable for thousands of shots, in current designs, is cost prohibitive. Only a few are made because there are only a few people that know, making them very expensive, making fewer people want them.

Also, a third reason that just popped into my head is, double rifles grew up and made a name for themselves in an era that had few options for repeater rifles, and even fewer capable of taming the big safari boomers. Modern metalurgy has rendered double rifles into obsolescence. They are still made for the same reason Colt SAAs are made: Romanticism.

Thanks to modern materials it's possible to have a semi auto 404 Jeffrey at a tenth the cost of a handmaid double in the same caliber.

 

[Gtscotty]

I like the points yall make about the comparable amounts of money folks are willing to spend on AR's, SCARS or custom 1911's. When considered in that light, I'd much rather have one of those fine looking Chapuis doubles than a SCAR, or Les Baer, or both.

 

[JShirley]

Grown men should have enough self-insight to realize this comment comes from envy, & is not High Road material.

How about grown-ups if we're going for the High Road? Or do women not count in your universe?

Thanks to modern materials it's possible to have a semi auto 404 Jeffrey at a tenth the cost of a handmaid double in the same caliber.

jakk, where is this paragon? I might be interested, once I raise the scratch- or is this in the mythical "could be" land of my .45 Colt AR15 bolt-action upper?

John

 

[YZ]

Not always true. I've seen Baikal .30-06 and .308 doubles. Baikal also has some interesting combo guns such as .308 / 12 gauge.

Correct on the calibers.
Where the Baikal doubles come from, repeater rifles used to be banned. The doubles still have style and are probably easy to maintain.

 

[jakk280rem]

The 404 auto i referenced is purely unicornish in nature. I was thinking that at the length and pressure it operates at it wouldn't be all that tough. The old Cobb (bought and shut by Cerebus, cum Freedom Group) modular AR-10 lower comes to mind. So does the BAR or FN equivalent.

 

[JShirley]

A bolt-action .45 Colt upper to drop onto an AR15 lower wouldn't be very hard, either...

 

[H&Hhunter]

Modern metalurgy has rendered double rifles into obsolescence. They are still made for the same reason Colt SAAs are made: Romanticism.

Thanks to modern materials it's possible to have a semi auto 404 Jeffrey at a tenth the cost of a handmaid double in the same caliber.

jakk,

I'm going to take you to task on these comments. The double rifle is only as obsolete as is African DG hunting. There is no better tool for defending yourself from a heavy thick skinned animal at close range than a double rifle IF you know how to use one. And there definitely is a technique and style to shooting a double that is different from any other rifle you've ever used. Once you learn how to really use a double there simply isn't anything on the planet that is smoother or faster that delivers the punch that heavy double rifle does. As far as accuracy I guarantee you that I can ring a 10" gong every pull of the trigger with a .470 or a .450 NE or some such at 200 yards. Which is plenty accurate enough for anything big and dangerous enough to use a heavy caliber on in Africa. At close range say 25 yards and in I can place a double tap in about one second within 4" of each other every single time delivering well over 10,000 Ftlbs energy on target. All this from a rifle that has the accuracy potential of your average heavy bolt gun and the handling characteristics of a perfectly fit double shotgun. After I've spent some time hunting with and shooting a double, a bolt gun feels like a 4x4 post when it comes to pointing and handling.

As far as the semi auto .404 which obviously could be done on something but it needs a magnum length action. You could simply use an M1 Garand in .458 WM it's been done and it's a cool idea I guess except for one tiny little problem. As far as I know there not one single solitary African country that allows big game hunting with a semi auto center fire rifle. So either get really good with your bolt gun or bite the bullet and learn how to shoot a double if you want to hunt the big dangerous stuff in Africa.

 

[Goblin]

Capstick was vehement about having that follow-up shot w/o losing sight picture.

 

[JShirley]

Yeah, but Capstick was a(n obvious) liar.

John

 

[H&Hhunter]

A good shooter with a bolt gun can cycle the bolt and never loose the sight picture. In fact that is the way a bolt gun was intended to be reloaded, from the shoulder.

A shooter who puts in the time and practice with either platform becomes extremely competent with it. I see one out of about 100 shooters who properly cycle a bolt gun on the shoulder for a quick follow up shot. To watch a man who knows how to shoot a heavy bolt gun as a matter of fact a .404 Jeffery go to the bottom right video.

http://www.safarishootingschool.com/photos.html

 

[Robert]

Having shot a 404 Jeff that is not something I'd want in a semi auto. Unless it was trailer mounted... In a good bolt gun, well that is just fun.

 

[Goblin]

Why is (was) Capstick a liar? What have I not heard?

 

[Robert]

That is some amazing bolt work in the video.

 

[MCgunner]

I have an old Spanish built 12 gauge SxS that shoots slugs like a double rifle. Bead sight limits it, but at 50 yards, bulls with both barrels and the same POA. Well regulated old beast, but kicks like hell. Dove loads are a bit more docile in the thing. I prefer to use it as a shotgun.

 

[Goblin]

That is some amazing bolt work in the video.

Yeah but there seemed to be so much extraneous movement...

 

[H&Hhunter]

I love some of Capsticks stuff but after having hunted Africa for a while it becomes patently obvious that his writing was pumped up and overblown to say the least. They are great stories, extremely descriptive and I have to admit that it was PHC who first started my interest in hunting Africa.

But when you read between the lines old PHC was just that, a story teller. Some of his stuff is so obviously jazzed up and fake that it is a bit embarrassing to think that I ever bought into it the way I did back in the day.

That being said I can't count the number of guys who had their African adventure fires lit by Mr. Capstick's writing, Death in the Long grass in particular and for that we owe him a debt of gratitude.

 

[MCgunner]

A good shooter with a bolt gun can cycle the bolt and never loose the sight picture.

I'm handicapped. I shoot right hand rifles in front of my left dominant eye. So, while the gun remains on the shoulder, I have to remove my head from in front of the bolt a bit and raise the barrel of the gun while I chamber the round. Now, if I'm shooting off a rest from a blind, I'm quicker, but making the first shot is the best idea.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Yeah but there seemed to be so much extraneous movement...

Really? Have you ever shot and cycled a heavy rifle on the shoulder before? The guy hardly moves in recoil at all. Go get yourself a .416 class rifle and give it a try, it is a skill to be able to hold the muzzle down in recoil like he does with a big gun.

 

[Goblin]

Really? Have you ever shot and cycled a heavy rifle on the shoulder before? The guy hardly moves in recoil at all. Go get yourself a .416 class rifle and give it a try, it is a skill to be able to hold the muzzle down in recoil like he does with a big gun.

No doubt, you are correct. I'm not addressing his competency, just the efficiency of the process. No offense intended to bolt shooters. Its all good!

 

[JShirley]

Goblin, don't know what you haven't heard, but ask a real African pro hunter, if you can find one.

(eta- I see H&H has answered this. I also enjoyed Death in the Long Grass.)

 

[demerp]

certainly

How about grown-ups if we're going for the High Road? Or do women not count in your universe?

Sir, women definitely count in my universe. Grown-ups is a fine correction; thanks for doing so gently. However, when I think on double rifles & those who use them, & write on them, men generally come to mind.

Meant no offense to anyone, man, woman, or child.

 

[demerp]

thank you

In the history of the double rifle there has never been a greater demand or a greater number of manufacturers than there is right here right now. Not to mention double rifles have never been cheaper to buy comparing the value of money today to the past. ....

....If a guy had about ten spare $100 dollar bills to spread around the local gun shops in Kenya, Rhodesia and parts of India in the 70's and early 80's when Kynoch quit making NE ammo and double rifles were considered worthless you could have bought 8 or 9 top end British doubles and be retiring on what you could sell those rifles for today. There have been some folks make a A LOT of money by knowing how to buy the right doubles and hanging on to them until the time was right.

Thanks for this amazing post. Am bookmarking it for later reference. The high signal to noise ratio of this forum is amazing. Am just starting to learn about double rifles, & this has been very helpful. Thank you, sir.

 

[Goblin]

I love some of Capsticks stuff but after having hunted Africa for a while it becomes patently obvious that his writing was pumped up and overblown to say the least. They are great stories, extremely descriptive and I have to admit that it was PHC who first started my interest in hunting Africa.

But when you read between the lines old PHC was just that, a story teller. Some of his stuff is so obviously jazzed up and fake that it is a bit embarrassing to think that I ever bought into it the way I did back in the day.

That being said I can't count the number of guys who had their African adventure fires lit by Mr. Capstick's writing, Death in the Long grass in particular and for that we owe him a debt of gratitude.

The books are all I'll ever have to know of the African experience. That being said, hyperbole must be the name of the game. I have read every book by every author I can find and PHC's exploits do not seem out of line with any of the others.

 

[demerp]

speaking of doubles

just today, was watching on Outdoor Channel a program called "Tracks Across Africa." the gentleman hunting on the show was using two doubles: a .577 Nitro originally owned by Heminway, & another (uncertain caliber) owned by Elmer Keith!!

thought this was a nice piece of history, & a nice coincidence, given this thread.

here's a link to info on Hemingway's double, w/ a pretty cool backstory:

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/rifles/2011/02/ernest-hemingways-577-nitro-rifle-auction

 

[Goblin]

just today, was watching on Outdoor Channel a program called "Tracks Across Africa." the gentleman hunting on the show was using two doubles: a .577 Nitro originally owned by Heminway, & another (uncertain caliber) owned by Elmer Keith!!

thought this was a nice piece of history, & a nice coincidence, given this thread.

here's a link to info on Hemingway's double, w/ a pretty cool backstory:

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/rifles/2011/02/ernest-hemingways-577-nitro-rifle-auction

Yeah....I have to order that book !