Why no high end double action revolvers?
- Thread starter Armed012002
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No. A base Korth always cost 5-10x more than a comparable S&W. I remember looking through Guns and Ammo annuals back when I was a kid and Korths cost $3000 back then while S&W's cost something like $350-$400. Add a PPC package and you are still under $1000. I had all this figured out in my head back then. I wish I could go back.
wad
Member
No mention of the MR-73 - until now....
The F1s were manufactured in France by Manurhin and differ from Ruger in many ways.
22-rimfire
Member
If you shoot the Rossi, Taurus, H&R, or Charter revolvers, you would likely feel the Smith or Colt revolver to be rather "high end".
wad
Member
I never assume a particular model of firearm when a brand is discussed. And I don't think the F1 is "funny looking" as I like the way they look. 
DM~
Member
Back in the late 70's i could have bought a Korth for $1,000.00 and there's NO WAY i would have traded one of my old "N" frames for it! I was winning a lot of matches with them, and had no need to trade down! I did not have to send my guns in for rebuild even once a year, so i'm not buying your "story".
I'm still shooting and hunting the same Smiths to this day, and they still shoot just fine!
Like i said, i looked at the Korth, it didn't show me anything, none of my guns are safe queens, and never will be so why trade for one?
DM
Magnumite
Member
"Korth is wear proof."
Bring the Korth. Wear proof is nonexistant. Measurable wear can be produced.
Bring the Korth. Wear proof is nonexistant. Measurable wear can be produced.
Why? What is it about PPC that's so tough on revolvers?
There's a high accuracy requirement, so maybe "rebuilt" means an occasional tuning & re-crowning? I wouldn't call that a rebuilding. The time requirements are pretty generous, so I can't see much wear and tear from high speed reloads and DA shooting. And lead target loads are being shot, so the ammo's not hot enough to pound the gun. And the lead bullets would've been relatively gentle on the rifling.
In contrast, USPSA, IDPA & ICORE, demand fast reloads and DA shooting, which is brutal on revos, and I'm no sure that even here, regular "rebuilds" are necessary.
FWIW, through a metric boatload of dry- and live-fire practice and match shooting, I went from Novice to Master in about a year using the same MIM/Lock 686 (the one in my vid posted above). It was tough on the gun, and while some competition-tuned parts got replaced, the gun itself held up fine and remains my primary IDPA gun.
I have never handled a "Korth" as I had no need (or money) to do so. What I did do was compete in PPC with a revovler for over 10 years. I started with a S&W M686 and then got a Davis build M64. Both served me well and neither were rebuilt after I got them. I shot them in competition and practice and put about 1000 rounds a week through each of them. I would imagine if I were to get them out, they would still put the bullets were I aimed them. To me the "Korth" was not worth the additional money.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
There are lots of folks out there who want a gun to accomplish a well-defined goal with a manageable amount of upkeep and maintenance, for some quantity of funds they can afford to part with, which has a pleasing appearance, and comfortable and intuitive controls.
Then there are some folks who greatly desire to own something that is just the very "best," by various measures, at any cost. Something that so far out paces their own skills in accuracy and round count in durability that they will never question for one second throughout their entire lives any need to consider another weapon.
It isn't a matter of "need" -- in fact as we've explored, the trade off for certain levels of precision may indeed be detrimental to actual practicality. It is a matter of appreciation for something that can be said to be "better" than anything compared against it.
From one perspective, it is an almost glorious wastefulness of resources. Expending expensive and difficult to machine material and many times the skilled man-hours required by lesser designs to create something that is far, FAR beyond every measure of what it should be or needs to be.
The Bentley, the gold toothbrush, the titanium drywall screw. It is an object that, when you own one, everyone -- including you yourself -- knows that you're the kind of person that owns that kind of thing. And that's really something.
oldfool
Member
the view from the peanut gallery -
I had hoped some PPC competitors (though they seem to shoot mainly custom autoloaders these days) would chime in on that
Although a non-participant, I don't get it either - the claims made about needing frequent rebuilds on K/L/Ns for that game. It's not truly a high speed game, it's not truly a high precision target game, and it's not a magnum load game. Very challenging, very difficult to master yes, no disrespect to PPC folks ! But PPC was, after all, specifically invented as a practical shooting exercise with service revolvers, no exotic gun customizing required.
and if handling extra Hot-n-Hefty magnum loads is supposed to be THE definitive criteria, then comparing the Korth to such as FA and/or other fine custom big bore SA revolvers would be the more sensible matchup to tout.
custom "race" guns break, much like custom "race" cars, because they are not only tuned to the leading bleeding edge, but are run at the ragged edge, pushing the envelope, and people who run them do expect to rebuild those guns/engines fairly frequently
I just never heard anybody claim "race gun" status for a Korth before (nor for an FA as far as that goes), no matter how finely built they be.
more of you folks who do USPSA, IDPA & ICORE, chime in here
how many Korths do you see on the line ?
(yeah, I know the pros shoot whatever their sponsors pay them to, but there are a lot of non-pro competitors out there, too)
I had hoped some PPC competitors (though they seem to shoot mainly custom autoloaders these days) would chime in on that
Although a non-participant, I don't get it either - the claims made about needing frequent rebuilds on K/L/Ns for that game. It's not truly a high speed game, it's not truly a high precision target game, and it's not a magnum load game. Very challenging, very difficult to master yes, no disrespect to PPC folks ! But PPC was, after all, specifically invented as a practical shooting exercise with service revolvers, no exotic gun customizing required.
and if handling extra Hot-n-Hefty magnum loads is supposed to be THE definitive criteria, then comparing the Korth to such as FA and/or other fine custom big bore SA revolvers would be the more sensible matchup to tout.
custom "race" guns break, much like custom "race" cars, because they are not only tuned to the leading bleeding edge, but are run at the ragged edge, pushing the envelope, and people who run them do expect to rebuild those guns/engines fairly frequently
I just never heard anybody claim "race gun" status for a Korth before (nor for an FA as far as that goes), no matter how finely built they be.
more of you folks who do USPSA, IDPA & ICORE, chime in here
how many Korths do you see on the line ?
(yeah, I know the pros shoot whatever their sponsors pay them to, but there are a lot of non-pro competitors out there, too)
None, but in fairness, I've never seen one period. I have seen a number of Pythons at matches, though.
A better question might be: How many master-level revo shooters shoot pretty standard revos (standard tuning aside, e.g. FO sights, chamfering, trigger job, etc)? Quite a lot. All the ones I know. Among the top dogs, I can think of Buckland, Lentz, Walsh, Nichols. Even Miculek's guns.
DM~
Member
Can you show me a pict of YOUR old Korth? And some groups it STILL shoots? I can show you picts of my old pre M-27 and M-29 that i won a ton of matches with. Never been "rebuilt" either...
I know for a fact my "N" frames will last me the rest of my life, so at YOUR price of $125.00 it's a heck of a deal, wouldn't you say?
I speak of my own personal experiences, are you?
DM
The same can be said about anything offered by Hamilton Bowen or any custom gunsmith. My point is there is a reason why Korths cost as mauch as they do: The exchange rate, the labor costs, the material costs, and the technology. They do not cut corners with this gun. It is not especially fancy with needlessly expensive features. There is no gold or diamonds, but there are roller bearings in the lockwork. It is made in such a way the owner does not have to return it for service, ever. You cannot compare it to luxury cars or jewelry.
There are other examples of this in the gun industry: HS Precision, Freedom Arms, Dakota Rifles, Springfield Custom, etc. who try to market firearms with particular attention to accuracy and durability. Yeah, a teenager making $6/hr can't afford one, but that don't mean they are needlessly flamboyant.
Like
Same can be said about IDPA, USPSA & ICORE guns, and unlike PPC, those rules favor some pretty harsh treatment, yet they're not rebuilt regularly. A point I made a few posts ago.
918v may be too busy ordering the Apex hammer & Power Custom trigger he just volunteered to buy & test
, so here's mine:With MIM parts, and The Lock, and much hard use, my 686 IDPA gun can still do this:
And as far as I know, my 5-screw K-38 is original, and never rebuilt, yet has seen plenty of range time, and can still print nicely.
I'm guessing my stock 4" 617 has 50k rounds through it, and it still does well, too:
What does this have to do with me? Are you suggesting the Korth is NOT made of better steel, to tighter tolerances, and is therefore more durable than your S&W? I have provided a link to an unbiased review comparing a Korth to a S&W.
No, I don't own one, but I don't have to to make the claims I did. I have owned more than a dozen S&W revolvers and currently have three PC 625's. I have plenty more experience with them than you. So don't try this "whip it out and see whose's longer" game with me cuz you will lose.
Cosmoline
Member
That's your answer right there. The Rugers are the most typical platform for this work, both because of their strength and because they have so much steel to work with.
Most of their work is single action, but they can do pretty much anything you can think of with the right double action. If I had $$ to spend I'd rather do that than buy a Korth. Of course I'd have to see a Korth before I could buy it, and though I've seen probably upwards of 10,000 firearms in my life I never remember seeing one of those in the flesh. They're like the Yeti of revolvers.
918v -
You claimed non-Korths used in competition had to be rebuilt regularly while Korths didn't.
I asked what made PPC so tough on revolvers, and your answer made it clear you either don't read posts in their entirety, or are happy to post half-truths.
Sam1911 and DM (who's at least handled a Korth) politely asked you what you found that made Korths so durable and how well they perform for you, yet you've managed to gloss over the request. In fact, you deflected the request by claiming that ownership of "more than a dozen S&W revolvers" gives you more experience with them than DM - and just how do you know that? Do you know DM?
In a concurrent thread, you made it clear you'd spend the money to replace MIM parts with forged parts if they were available. I showed you there are forged hammer and trigger replacements available (interesting that someone with so much experience didn't know that), yet you managed to find a reason why you're not interested.
Can you see why I and others might now think you've nothing to contribute other than groundless opinion? We've got plenty of that around here already, so at least you've got company.
It's too bad this thread turned into a "Korth" thread. For one thing, as Cosmoline points out, as the Yeti of the revolver world, the boundary between fact and fiction becomes blurred with no way to clear it up. For another, the OP didn't single out Korth - we could've discussed many other things, but chose to talk about a Yeti, instead. :banghead:
You claimed non-Korths used in competition had to be rebuilt regularly while Korths didn't.
I asked what made PPC so tough on revolvers, and your answer made it clear you either don't read posts in their entirety, or are happy to post half-truths.
Sam1911 and DM (who's at least handled a Korth) politely asked you what you found that made Korths so durable and how well they perform for you, yet you've managed to gloss over the request. In fact, you deflected the request by claiming that ownership of "more than a dozen S&W revolvers" gives you more experience with them than DM - and just how do you know that? Do you know DM?
In a concurrent thread, you made it clear you'd spend the money to replace MIM parts with forged parts if they were available. I showed you there are forged hammer and trigger replacements available (interesting that someone with so much experience didn't know that), yet you managed to find a reason why you're not interested.
Can you see why I and others might now think you've nothing to contribute other than groundless opinion? We've got plenty of that around here already, so at least you've got company.
It's too bad this thread turned into a "Korth" thread. For one thing, as Cosmoline points out, as the Yeti of the revolver world, the boundary between fact and fiction becomes blurred with no way to clear it up. For another, the OP didn't single out Korth - we could've discussed many other things, but chose to talk about a Yeti, instead. :banghead:
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Actually, let's stop. There's nothing to be gained by a contest to see who's got the best credentials to back up their opinion, and after reviewing the OP's question (...I had to go back and remind myself of what it even was! ...) I don't think we're getting any closer to answering it.
...) I don't think we're getting any closer to answering it.- Status
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