Why shoot Blackpowder?

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Ed/Pa

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Why would anybody shoot an in-line or some dremt-up configuration of a non historically offered wepon (such as a TC hawken to list 1 of the many and deffinetly not the worst of the lot) if it werent for hunting seasons created and streched past their original intent to offer people the oppurtunity to shoot anything that remotley resembles or newly contrived to be a blackpower wepon?? Why shoot a gun that is messy, corrodes if not cleaned everytime you shoot, and requires an array of accessories to be totted with it ,although it may ressemble nothing remotley close to what was used 150 or 200 yrs ago? Beats me......... I'll use a 30-06 or worst case a slug-gun.

If your really a blackpowder shooter , IMO , then carry that flintlock/caplock/cartridge gun during the regular season ,and shoot an accurate copy of an original gun. That is unless your fortunate enough to own an original that still shoots. Just my 2 cents
 
Why Blackpowder?

Why? Personally I do not shoot, or even own, an inline. My Longrifle is a handbuilt, by me, copy of an early Lancaster, in flint, the only difference is that it is in 50cal. My Hawken, also built by me, is a copy of a 3/4 stock origional I saw at a museum. This one is in 62cal, flint lock.

It's the HISTORY. Knowing that I can live as my forefathers did.

It's the CHALLENGE. Being able to get close enough to harvest game with a "underpowered, smelly, slow loading" weapon.

It's the KNOWLEDGE. That I CAN do these things, even against the inroads of the modern scope sighted rifles.

I hunt with my flinters during regular season, and take my share of the game.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas
 
Why shoot a gun that is messy, corrodes if not cleaned everytime you shoot, and requires an array of accessories to be totted with it ,although it may ressemble nothing remotley close to what was used 150 or 200 yrs ago?
Click to expand...

Frankly one reason is access to hunting season sooner, and in some places you have access to more hunting land.

Nothing wrong with that at all.
 
I shoot BP because it's fun, has less recoil than a comparable cartridge gun, and gets me an earlier season for whitetail, so I can sneak in before the deer are all skiddish from being shot at.
 
I'll shoot what I feel like shootin', thanks. It's a free country. I have a hawkin hunter carbine, not really original, but has the look. But, I've been wanting a cheap inline to pay with. I've not hunted with black powder, no special season in my county in Texas, but I have a lot of fun at the range and if we had an early season, I'd hunt with an inline if I had one, with a scope if legal. Inlines work better in wet conditions, have more positive ignition, and a scope is always better than irons for an old guy whose eyes were never that great in the first place.
 
I think there are three major misunderstandings, and they often come from people who assume that everyone else's local conditions are just like theirs. They're not.

Misunderstanding number one comes from people who have never taken a 300 yard shot on a deer, because of the terrain and vegetation in their area.

In open areas in the West, hunting with a muzzleloader is truly different from hunting with a .30-06, as different as bowhunting sometimes.

Misunderstanding number two comes from people who live in states where deer swarm like flies, and are a road hazard, not a rarity; where doe tags are jokingly called "redneck food stamps."

Here, a doe tag is a premium tag, only available through a lottery. A friend of mine got one; I didn't. And I can't remember the last time I saw antlers outside of a state park, so a doe tag is almost synonymous with a deer tag. Buck tag success rates are around 8% every year.

A tag for the special muzzleloader season, in December, is also only available by lottery. I didn't get one of those, either.

Misunderstanding number three comes from the belief that the only difference between a "modern muzzleloader" and a "traditional muzzleloader" is aesthetics.

Let me address all three.

1. If you hunt in dense woods on flat ground, then muzzleloader season is kind of silly. What's the difference? Why not shoot whatever you want? I'm right there with you. I suppose that a special flintlock season might make some sense, since the guns are still a lot harder to hunt with, but in general, why have a special season for 100-yard single-shot guns when 75 yard shots are the practical max even with a .300 WinMag, and one shot is all you get, no matter what you're shooting?

So I agree with people who resent the whole special season. Why have it? Lengthen the regular season. Let those who enjoy shooting muzzleloaders use them if they want, just like bird hunters might use SxS shotguns because they like them.

However, in states where 300 yard shots are common, a special season for the 100 yard guns with other limitations really does make sense, at least if you agree that a special archery season makes sense. These are different kinds of hunting.

(I also agree that the "modern muzzleloader" would not exist without special seasons like these. The traditional gun would, because people like them for their own sake; they build them, target shoot with them, etc. People don't shoot the modern in-lines for fun, just so they can hunt longer.)

2. In states where there are so many deer that they're a nuisance and people buy tags by the dozen, it's also dumb to have special seasons as if deer are rare. Just open it up. If there were a good chance I'd get 5 or more deer per season, I could use a .30-06 one a couple, a muzzleloader on a couple, and a revolver after that, just to keep it interesting. No need for a special season.

However, in areas like mine, where long shots are common and deer are rare, I think that people can understand why a special season for muzzleloaders makes sense. You might ask why the same season isn't open to modern revolver hunters or single-shot straight-wall case rifles like an 1874 Sharps, and your question would be valid. Still, the idea of a special season makes sense here, even if it makes no sense in densely-wooded, flat areas with more deer than people.

3. A T/C Hawken still functions and feels like a traditional gun. It's limited to the same powder charges and the cap is still exposed to the weather. Any differences are tiny convenience features like an adjustable rear sight for easier sighting-in and a barrel that pops out for bucket-cleaning. When you're out hunting, these don't change the performance any.

If you don't like the aesthetics of the thing, that's your right. However, this has nothing to do with a debate about what guns should be allowed in a special season. The special seasons were designed for guns that don't always go off reliably, with rainbow trajectories and low velocity, heavy bullets.

Now, assuming that, per #1 and 2, you are in a place where special seasons make sense at all, then you have to look at what they're designed for. When someone buys an in-line because it offers performance on par with some centerfires, with weatherproof reliability, that changes the equation that matches hunter to tags to available deer.

That's why I have no problem with "drawing the line" for special seasons at some point. These seasons were not ordained by God for anything with a ramrod. They were calculated by some population biology math geek with certain assumptions.

Use a gun specifically designed to exploit the special season so that a hunter who wants to shoot a centerfire can bag a deer without learning anything new besides cleaning procedures, and you ought to expect that, sooner or later, the rules will be changed to shut out certain firearms, including yours. And don't pretend that's not the purpose of the in-line; read any ad copy.

I don't favor any regulation of aesthetics. I don't care if someone wants to shoot an in-line, or a T/C, or whatever. A special season for guns with certain limitations CAN make sense in SOME places. When and where it does, then trying to "cheat" invites negative attention from DFG as well as other hunters.

It's a mixed bag, but everything seems to think that HE'S right and everyone else is insane. Those of you who bag 7 deer a season, that sounds like fun, but don't tell people out here that our tag rules should be just like yours should be. We don't do that to you.
 
For me its the difference between being allowed to hunt within reasonable driving distance of home or not.

I can hit the deer woods and fields before and after work with a BP gun. If I want to shoot a rifle, I need to travel a few hours (or worse, depending on traffic).
 
Thanks for the great post Armed Bear -

To further elaborate on my response - there is also another consideration at play. In some states, or some areas, there is an over abundance of deer that need to be managed yet at the same time, because of population densities and changing demographics or simply political trends, there is a loss of knowledge about firearms. Hence, you see places like Fairfax County Virginia where I live that effectively ban the discharge of all firearms within the county and hence limit hunting opportunities to only bow hunters. As a result, I go to Montgomery County, Maryland - in many ways far more liberal but also understanding that they need to control the deer. They won't let you use a centerfire rifle, but do allow you to use a muzzleloader through the entire early season (late October) and then the traditional November/December season.

Sure, I could forgo the muzzleloader (which would prevent me from having to buy a ml stamp) but then I would need to turn around a purchase a slug gun (neither my skeet nor duck guns are appropriate candidates for being) and that just seems silly since the muzzleloader strikes me as more useful and opens up more opportunities to hunt.
 
....states where deer swarm like flies, and are a road hazard, not a rarity; where doe tags are jokingly called "redneck food stamps."
Click to expand...

In Tennessee, the emblem or hood ornament on the front of your car or truck could very well be called a "deer tag". :eek:

And given that, I really don't care what people shoot the deer with, so long as they do shoot 'em. :fire:



J.C.
 
First I believe your reference to a "TC Hawken" actually was meant for the Contender. The Hawken, save for the sights, is a close replica to those made famous by the mountain men. It shoots loose powder and lead balls, or bullets. They are fun to shoot, I know because I have one. I also have an inline Traditions that I don't like as well and a civil war replica that I enjoy shooting. Secondly, I believe anyone that is really pro 2A would understand the inherent right in shooting a weapon of choice.
 
The BP season in Michigan comes AFTER the regular rifle season. But since hunting space is limited (state-lands), they are somewhat overrun with hunters during the regular season. During the BP season, it is less congested. Costs for hunting on private land, after you "lease" the property, pay for your lodging and meals, adds up to at least $1000 for that deer, which on a per lb basis is pretty expensive. But since you can hunt on state land without nearly so many people during the BP season, the cost is much less. And since we had nearly 65,000 car deer accidents in the last year, your chances are still good of getting a deer during the later season. Around here some people refer to them as "rats with antlers" after dodging them daily on the way to work.
 
Why?

Why would anybody shoot an in-line or some dremt-up configuration of a non historically offered wepon (such as a TC hawken to list 1 of the many and deffinetly not the worst of the lot) if it werent for hunting seasons created and streched past their original intent to offer people the oppurtunity to shoot anything that remotley resembles or newly contrived to be a blackpower wepon?? Why shoot a gun that is messy, corrodes if not cleaned everytime you shoot, and requires an array of accessories to be totted with it ,although it may ressemble nothing remotley close to what was used 150 or 200 yrs ago? Beats me......... I'll use a 30-06 or worst case a slug-gun.

If your really a blackpowder shooter , IMO , then carry that flintlock/caplock/cartridge gun during the regular season ,and shoot an accurate copy of an original gun. That is unless your fortunate enough to own an original that still shoots. Just my 2 cents
Click to expand...

We do it to piss off purists and the Fudds who think they have an exclusive birthright to the blackpowder season - and it appears to be working quite well, just like when the flintlockers got their panties in a wad over the percussion cap guns, and the percussion folks went bonkers over the inline frontstuffers. Some things never change. :D

I have flintlocks, caplocks, inlines, and black powder cartridge guns. Funny that they don't hate each other in the gun safe, isn't it? You'd think there'd be total carnage, considering how much animosity there is out there on the Intarweb.

I bought my two stepsons a pair of new inline muzzleloaders last year, to get them into the muzzleloading swing of things, while adding even more venison to my freezers this fall on top of centerfire rifle season.

I also have family and friends in the local DNR, serving as administrators and game wardens. They're already getting sniveling emails and phone calls asking if they're going to ban those evil CVA Electra muzzleloading rifles - they've only been on the market how long? This is eerily reminiscent of my days in California, when the "You don't need an AK-47 to hunt deer" folks bent the ears of the local officials, making a good chunk of my gun collection illegal out there, and forcing me to move as they were subsequently banned.

God bless America. :(

(I'm waiting for ArmedBear to take this to a personal level, like he did in the other thread)
 
Why? Because!

Why would I need a reason? I like it, its' fun. It's something I can do and do well. Why shouldn't I? Just because somebody wants to be a purist, does not mean that I should have to, also. That's a fascist way. Most of us gun owners are individualists who have a common passion, shooting. Why spoil things by asking such a question.

The Doc is out now. :cool:
 
Gewehr, you and others call people "Fudds" and "Zumbos", and accuse anyone who can hang with certain limits imposed by Florida and other state Fish and Game laws on firearms for special seasons of being anti-RKBA -- even though there are countless other similar F&G regulations applying to guns other than muzzleloaders.

Here, you say that you choose to use certain guns because you believe it pisses certain people off.

And you think I'm the one who makes this personal?

Did you read my post above?
 
I've got to say that the correct answer is "to piss off the purists".

I've never hunted anything. Maybe I will some day. Probably will... but I haven't yet. I enjoy shooting my TC Omega inline black powder rifle. Just as I have access to modern sophisticated pistols but I enjoy shooting cap and ball revolvers... and just as I enjoy the flintlock .50 pistol and my modern cartridge guns of all sorts.

If it also bothers you I win twice.
 
Again we hear from the self appointed moral police. Who died and put you in charge of what other people can or can not do??? I find your attitude to be extremely unAmerican. For now at lest we still have the illusion of personal liberty. Everybody that attempts to subvert that liberty is a subversive to the American concept of personal liberty. And trust me PA your two cents aren't worth a penny. Self righteous and arrogant give me a break will ya.

You know this guys life just has to be empty. He has to come here and try to stir up S__t so get his jollies off. This guy is a sad sack if I ever saw one.
 
I don't know about the rest of the guys here, but I shoot my black powder rifle because I enjoy doing it.

I happen to own a Thompson Center. It's a Renegade. For those that don't know, it's even less accurate to the original guns of the 1800s than the Hawken mentioned above.

Here's a pic...

blackpowder002.jpg

It's a 50 cal side hammer cap lock that shoots patched round balls and loose black powder.

Yes, it's made of modern steel.

Yes, it uses coil springs.

Yes, it has adjustable sights.

And yes, it even has a rubber butt pad.

So what? I can't imagine a single reason why that would matter to anybody else but me.

Do I care if somebody is offended by my choice of rifles? Not in the least.

Do I wonder why another person would chose to be offended by my choice of rifles?

Well, yes. Personally, I can't imagine being offended by YOUR choice of rifles, so I'm mildly interested in hearing why you are offended by mine.

I'm not a hunter, so the whole discussion about the rights and wrongs of using THIS rifle in THAT season doesn't apply to me. I think most reasonable people would agree that this rifle is in keeping with the whole "Primitive" spirit of those seasons.

But that's not why I bought it.

I bought my black powder rifle because I enjoy shooting it.

I take it to the range, I make smoke, and I poke holes in paper.

I find this to be a satisfying way to spend an afternoon.

My Thompson isn't of any historical significance, so I'm not worried about shooting (And possibly damaging) a valuable piece of American history.

My Thompson is very strong and safe, so I don't worry about steel made in the 1800s coming apart in my face.

My Thompson makes me happy.

blackpowder011-1.jpg

OK, I've explained myself.

Your turn. Why does my Thompson bother you?
 
Ed/Pa, I'm guessing that you're a trap shooter, right? Well, that explains alot.
Trap shooters are mad at the world because they can't shoot like skeet shooters. You can always tell a trap shooter by the way they write - they always use "your" instead of "you're".
I apologize if I wrongly called you a trap shooter. I'm just a black powder shooter who spends a good deal of his time at the range patching, shaving and ramming his lead balls.

By the way, Ed/Pa (and all trap shooters - I like trap), I'm joking with you, like I think you were joking with us.
 
Fast Frank's photo

Something struck me about that photo of Fast Frank at the range. All those postions, and the only one there is Fast Frank.

Fast Frank, I've got to ask this question. Are you THAT BAD a shot that nobody wants to be within range of you. :D :p :rolleyes: :neener:

The Doc is out now. :cool:
 
My normal work week goes from Tuesday through Saturday. (I work at a motorcycle shop. And yes, I've been known to show a few folks what fast looks like:evil:)

Monday at 9AM the range looks like that.

It's very nice, actually. I'm not fond of crowded public ranges.

As I recall, I was there for several hours without getting a single gun pointed at me.:)
 
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