Why to people butcher and rape milsurps?

[30Cal]

It's also worth noting that the people who buy one milsurp to make a hunting rifle are NOT the reason milsurp prices have gone up. You have the collectors with 10+ rifles to thank for that - for example, the people that forced the CMP to institute an 8 rifles per year limit on Garands!!!

Up until the mid-90's, the CMP limited to one per lifetime (not included stuff that sold through the lottery system). They do have a limit of 8 per year now, because I guess there are a handful of people out there that would buy more than that.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Well, if you need your milsurp fix on rifles in original condition, perhaps a bit more rough than usual conditions, head over the J&G Sales, and pick up one of the Spanish mausers they have before they too are all gone. Calibers are 7x57 and 308.

I'm only 36 years old and I remember when I was 13-14 a local shop having a ton of these for $49 each.
No doubt some of you guys with more years remember them even cheaper.

My dad bought one in .308 and had it sporterized. It now has a bent bolt, sits in a synthetic stock and wears a Weaver 3-9x40 scope.
I wish he had gotten a 7x57 caliber because the rifles weren't made to handle the pressure of the .308/7.62 Nato round. They are not safe to shoot full throttle factory ammo in.
We now load it using the data from Hodgdon's "youth loads" to keep pressures down.
It will shoot darn near MOA with those reduced loads. My father still hunts with it, and being older now he's more recoil sensitive so the reduced loads work great. At 150 yds or so, they do the job nicely on whitetails.

 

[Art Eatman]

Times change. I remember when guys would go to the bank, get Brilliant Uncirculated Morgan dollars and play Washers with them during lunch hour. Priced a BU Morgan, lately?

New Ferraris once sold for $12,000 and went to the race track for whanging and banging in the corners. Same sort of thing for "original" Shelby Mustangs. Now?

Same for milsurps. Or SAA Colts that once were in hock-shop windows for $25 to $35.

 

[Llama Bob]

Up until the mid-90's, the CMP limited to one per lifetime (not included stuff that sold through the lottery system). They do have a limit of 8 per year now, because I guess there are a handful of people out there that would buy more than that.

Because the CMP sells the rifles at below market rate (in violation of the law authorizing the CMP, incidentally) they have a scalping problem. I don't really blame the customers since it's CMP's fault and the customers are just following the riles, but when there are folks making a living off the CMP Garands something is seriously wrong.

 

[salt&battery]

Who would have thought tne Mosin rifle supply would dry up as quickly as it did but thanks to the acts of government officials who know what you need in your life better than you do, there are now only expensive rifles out there. It was no big deal to buy one ar $89 and just for fun see what can be dine to make it a decent hunting rifle. Cut the barrel, tap for rings, ( surely you have an old Lyman or Bushnell 4x laying aboij turn the bolt handle and replace the stock with somethig more sporting....for a couple of hundred you could have a sporting rifle for your kid's first deer hunt.
Now that that same rifle starts out about $300 and ammo is not cheap buying buy the sealed tin it does not make sense to chop one up. I still see, however guys removingthe spike bayonet on carbines and sks rifles then grinding all that chunk of metal into something more pleasing to the eye. Too each his own!

big reason also that mosins dried up is the internet. guys on forums talking how cheap the rifles and ammo was. years ago not that many would have found out so quickly

 

[fpgt72]

Because the CMP sells the rifles at below market rate (in violation of the law authorizing the CMP, incidentally) they have a scalping problem. I don't really blame the customers since it's CMP's fault and the customers are just following the riles, but when there are folks making a living off the CMP Garands something is seriously wrong.

I will walk past the garand table at the gun show....you know the one that has them all priced at $2000 each....Friend was with me once stopped and looked at the table and said I wish I could afford one of those....I told him he could...not for 2 grand....I let me know when you want one and we will get it from CMP...they are about 700 up there, where do you think these come from.....you should have seen the looks....amazement from the shoppers pure hate from the scalpers....err sellers.

 

[hq]

I've been following this conversation from the sidelines for a while now. In my opinion "butcher" and "rape" are strong words for modifying relatively cheap, very much mass produced and downright common military firearms to one's liking. Don't get me wrong, I'm the first to admit I admire well preserved and even some restored examples of historical military rifles and their significance in their time, but if a thousand or ten thousand are sporterized, it really isn't the end of the world. Or often even a bad thing.

As far supplies drying up is concerned, it's market fluctuation. Sometimes there's more supply than demand, sometimes vice versa. Cheap rifles sell, always, and quite a few people buy them for peanuts, just to forget about they have one. I'm guilty of that as well, having a bunch of surplus rifles in safes collecting dust and reflecting hopes and dreams that haven't been realized yet. If they ever will. It's just how the market works. I'd bet there's lots and lots more surplus rifles of any kind in original configuration than there are ones actually sporterized and modified like their owners planned when they impulse bought them just because they were cheap.

 

[GBExpat]

I can recall as a teenager, prior to GCA'68, going into the local Mason's Department Store and, in the Sports Department (upon entry, "hang a louie" and head for the left-front corner of the store ... I can still see it in my mind's eye) and lusting over the 2(?) big wooden barrels with milsurp longguns ($10/ea IIRC) and the 2(?) smaller wooden boxes of milsurp pistols ($15/ea IIRC).

I also recall that all of the items were FILTHY ... slathered in nasty-,dirty-looking black grease/oil.

Aside from my total ignorance of the details of any of these firearms, I would not even think of attempting a purchase without my Dad's OK ... who probably would not have thought about bringing items this nasty back to the house without Mom's OK.

Keep in mind that such "product ignorance" was not as easy to remedy then as today. We had no vast reservoir of information at our fingertips. We had no Internet, no THR forums and the like. We had to seek out the info from magazines, book and folks who knew.

And a lot of that information from the "folks who knew" was crap. <chuckle>

I remember back in the '60s that a great way to get a good, inexpensive hunting rifle was to start with a silly-cheap milsurp and work it down.

 

[fpgt72]

I've been following this conversation from the sidelines for a while now. In my opinion "butcher" and "rape" are strong words for modifying relatively cheap, very much mass produced and downright common military firearms to one's liking. Don't get me wrong, I'm the first to admit I admire well preserved and even some restored examples of historical military rifles and their significance in their time, but if a thousand or ten thousand are sporterized, it really isn't the end of the world. Or often even a bad thing.

As far supplies drying up is concerned, it's market fluctuation. Sometimes there's more supply than demand, sometimes vice versa. Cheap rifles sell, always, and quite a few people buy them for peanuts, just to forget about they have one. I'm guilty of that as well, having a bunch of surplus rifles in safes collecting dust and reflecting hopes and dreams that haven't been realized yet. If they ever will. It's just how the market works. I'd bet there's lots and lots more surplus rifles of any kind in original configuration than there are ones actually sporterized and modified like their owners planned when they impulse bought them just because they were cheap.

Not trying to troll like I have been accused of....but where do you draw the line.

Like my story above....a Krag is not something that was made in real huge numbers, was not in service for a long time....and really pretty worthless at one time as well. No it is not the end of the world...it is after all just a thing. If you think of value, the original is 99.9% of the time worth more. If you want to make it shoot "better" again 99.9% a new factory rifle will shoot "better" and be more inexpensive....in this day and age it goes double true.

I just can not see any justification in this day and age to really butcher, and that is a good word, a vintage firearm.

One thing you did say...bunch of surplus rifles in the save reflecting hopes and dreams.....what are those hopes and dreams.....are we talking about turning a profit....if you talk about the SKS you bought in the early 90's for $89 I think you can turn a good profit....and that profit will only go up. Are you talking about the 91/30 that you bought 10 years ago for $89....if so again you can likely sell it just as you bought it for double the money....perhaps more if it has a mark on it someone really wants. So what hopes and dreams are they.....If it is that one modified 91/30 that you bought for $89 put the tacticool stock, drilled and tapped it for glass, cut down the barrel, put new sites on it, bent the bolt handle, spent money on it having it x,y,z and you now have $500 in it and you want $700 out of it....well those dreams are going to be a long time in coming.

 

[fpgt72]

I remember back in the '60s that a great way to get a good, inexpensive hunting rifle was to start with a silly-cheap milsurp and work it down.

Point I have been trying to make....now it really is the other way around with Savage, Ruger American and the like.

 

[X-Rap]

There isn't a representation of a gun that can't be found in the big national museums or private collections that I'm aware of.
Sure I wish I could go and by an arsenal grade in many models but we all can't do it anymore than we can all go buy a knuckle head, a super bird or model t.
This whole argument about modifying milsurps is more about entitlement than preserving history, the preservation has been done already.

 

[Nature Boy]

if you don't like sporterizing--then simply avoid commenting on them, if you don't like milsurps or restoring them to original configuration, then avoid those topics

I like both!

 

[hq]

what are those hopes and dreams.....

The unrealized ones. When you find a milsurp you were hellbent on turning into a cheap sporter of your dreams buried in dust in the attic, untouched, in the OEM configuration. Those are not nearly as uncommon as one might think. Don't worry, the vast majority of military rifles of yore haven't gone anywhere. They just attracted a number of impulse purchases when they were plentiful and cheap. Every other Winchester M1895 was rebarreled to 8.2x53R around here, some to 7x53R, at some point. Lots of musket stocks were cut to carbine configuration. In spite of that there are boatloads of original specification examples around. Not all need to be faithful to their military roots, many already are.

 

[Offfhand]

Here's a poor Mauser that didn't escape the butcher's shop. Among the other despicable disfigurements the bolt handle was re-shaped and checkered, a M-70 style safety fitted, the receiver ring ground down and crested and , horror of horrors, was cut in half and shorted by a half inch to make it about perfect for rebarreling to .250 Savage. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to live with the thing.

 

[LoonWulf]

^ MURDERERERERERRRRRRRRR>>>!!!!!!

I digress...thats a beautiful rifle, and alot of work making it so. I likes very much.

 

[Jackal]

"Why do people rape milsurps?"

Sounds painful....

 

[dwjwin50]

My dad bought an 03-A3 for $10 in the late 50s then added a Montecarlo stock and Redfield front sight blade. He hunted with it and loved that rifle. I'll leave it just as it is, but I'm tempted to add a scope but it is heavy and modern 308 Win rifles are fairly cheap.

 

[dieselchief]

as a resident of conn when sen dodd sponsored the 68 gun control act I have a interesting sidelight. there has been a distant rumblings that domestic firearms manufactors (most were in conn at that time) supported ending mail order of surplus arms.
....quite frankly a working slob could not afford rem win colt smith etc. in those days. so cut and hack we did. me too.
....however in the same breath (me included), we also worked at a gun factory or a company that directly made stuff for the companies there. dc

 

[BrocLuno]

So I buy my Mil-Surp parts loose. Mostly as they have already been "butchered". I buy a turned bolt rather than doing it myself, because it's cheaper than a correct part and I don't have to do the work.

Have you ever heard of Cracked Eddies? These are WW-I era Model of 1917 bolt action 30-06 military rifles that were screwed up at the arsenals when refitting them with new barrels. They installed the barrels with a machine and they over torqued them to get the index marks to line up. The hardened receivers cracked. BTW - this is a 5ft 10lb rifle ...

Scare a lot of folks. All sorts of bad stories about these rifles. They used to be dirt cheap. Best way to get a 1917 parts gun was to buy a Cracked Eddy. I still have a few.

I will unscrew the barrel, Vee out the crack, re-weld the receiver, relieve the receiver face, dress it down, polish it, and re-install the barrel, or another. Currently a $50~$70 rifle if it's been bubba'd before he found the crack.

You think I should try to restore it? Why? It's already hacked and it's broken... I can sell off the parts I don't want and make my money back. Now I have a chassis I can do anything I want with. What's wrong with that ...

Shorten the barrel if it's decent. Replace it if I want to. Cut down the rear sight "ears" if I want (if they have not already been done), add a scope, put it in Richards Micro-Fit stock (any pattern including thumb-hole) and I have a shooter. I literally have a truck rifle for a few hundred and you don't

Care to stand down range and tell me if it shoots ...

 

[amadeus76]

Some of you seem to think I collect these rifles and don't shoot them... I shoot them all and quite frequently. My M48 and my 1903a3 are my primary hunting rifles.

 

[Joshua M. Smith]

Some of you seem to think I collect these rifles and don't shoot them... I shoot them all and quite frequently. My M48 and my 1903a3 are my primary hunting rifles.

And my general purpose rifle is a 91/30 in original stock.

I don't have a scope on it and like the long sight radius.

However, I don't generally use it in the woods. If Indiana keeps the 7.62x54r as a legal deer cartridge, I might just buy ( or -shudder- make a carbine.)

The 91/30 has my Stainless Steel Pillar Bedding/Accurizing kit installed. The front sight is a Classic Target with a point in the post. My trigger is a Smith-Sights Hybrid Two-Stage. It has a Rick Lowe butt cuff (available through Brass Stacker) for comfort and to carry ammo and a multi-tool. I load SST-tipped rounds for it and it is slightly sub-moa.

The carbine will be much the same but with a Hunter's Red fiber-optic sight and maybe handloads with slightly heavier soft tip bullets. Likely open up the rear sight a little, too, or build a Rigby-style Interchangeable Aperture rear sight (discontinued) for it.

Of course, I have milsurps I won't modify, too, but if it's a common 91/30 or carbine, absolutely I'll repurpose it!

Josh

 

[Carl N. Brown]

When I was first aware of military surplus rifles (late 1950s), you could go to the Army/Navy surplus store and pay $14.95 for an as-issued kinda beat-up .303 Lee Enfield, or pay $19.95 for a .303 Lee Enfield with the bayonet lug, hand guard, and barrel band removed, the forearm shaped kinda like sporting rifle with or w/o a forward swivel added (semi-sporterized they were called). Collectible military rifles had to to be Excellent, Fine or Un-issued grades to have any value. And post-WWII, commercial hunting rifles were just outside the wallet for most working guys.

We did have a few people who hunted with an Arisaka or Mauser brought home as a war trophy or military surplus as-issued. But due to the relative expense of a commercial sporter even through the 1960s, and glut of military surplus, a lot of those barreled actions or actions ended up made into custom sporters because it was that or nothing if you wanted a centerfire rifle. In 1963, my best friend's dad had a bolt action .22, a 12ga shotgun, and a military 7.7mm Arisaka in the rack at their farmhouse. Most farm families made do with a .22 and a 12ga. He had a deer rifle and they didn't.

Today with almost any grade of as-issued military rifle considered collectible as a historic curio or relic, and decent sporters available at competitive prices, there is less incentive to sporterize military rifles. And our local gun club started up modern and vintage military competitions in the past twenty years. I don't remember that in the past. So now there is collector AND shooter demand for as-issued military in any servicable grade.

Look on the bright side. Every military surplus rifle sporterized raises the rarity of the collector's as-issued rifle.

 

[BruceAustin1776]

Because 'Merica.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I really have no problem with a Krag sporterized back in the day. The last four gun shows had some beautiful old school sporterized Krags. There were also as-issued 19th century cavalry carbine and infantry rifle Krags which, to-day, would be blaspemy to alter.
If I had the free money, there were a 1930s style sporterized Krag in a Mannlicher style stock and an as-issued cavalry carbine Krag I would have loved to have both just because.

 

[Duster340]

I love milsurps (K98, Mosin, SKS etc) and tend to keep them all in original form. That said, I have no problem with folks that choose to change/tailor them to their personal tastes or needs. Case in point, I have a 1943 No4 Mk1 that I "butchered" and it has become my go-to deer rifle and gp truck gun. I picked it up for $50 or $75 back in the 80's. After cleaning it up I found the that first 5-6 inches of the barrel was ridiculously worn out. (see pic below

). I tried a few shots only to find the rounds tumbling, key holing at 25 feet! Being on a tight budget, re-boring and/or re-barreling was not in the cards. So she'd been regulated to a closet corner since the 80's and hadn't seen the light of day in over 30 years . A few years back, my wife and I purchased some land to hunt in Northern Wisconsin. Dense hardwood, Cedar wetlands etc. Thinking a short carbine type rifle would be just the ticket for deer in the thick stuff, I pulled the old forgotten Enfield out to see if I could breath some live into the old girl. Now I knew some folks would "flame" me for modifying an old Enfield (let the Bubba comments fly LOL), but I feel I'd give try to make a usable hunting rifle out of a wall hanger.

I cut the damaged portion of the barrel back to the good rifling, now just under 17.5", re-crowned it, relocated the original front sight. Then shortened and reconfigured the stock to maintain a fairly "original look". Did all the work myself for $0. It shoots great and is now one of my favorite guns. The response from folks that see it and shoot it has all be quite positive.

So I guess it all boils down to personal preference.

Be well folks.