Quantcast

Why we need to fight any proposed UBC bills

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Ryanxia, Aug 9, 2019.

  1. jdh

    jdh Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,147
    If someone answered your question I missed it so,
    When the transferring dealer receives a delayed response from NICS instead of an immediate proceed/denied the dealer may after three government working days complete the transfer with out having received a response from NICS. The proposed change is to extend that to 5 days.
     
    Buzznrose likes this.
  2. jjadurbin

    jjadurbin Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2012
    Messages:
    153
    Location:
    Arithzona
    I'm pretty much aware that many local governments have tried to enable legislation and new laws framed around a RED FLAG system, and then always the expanded background checks, which I considered Washington speak for first demanding, and then enforcing, a national gun registry. With one evil turn of the screw, such a beast could result in attempts at disarmament.

    I know that might sound extreme, but I'm sorry to say, that's not paranoia. I worked in Washington, D.C., and other nearby locations for about 30 years in agency work etc., lived through several administrations, and the godless nonsense and detachment from reality that fuels that place never once failed to amaze me. So, if you will, one day I was having a bag lunch outside the office with a Mr. Dobbs, his real name, and I was picking his brain on local history, mostly Civil and pre-Civil War. And before we traded ham for tuna, he said, so what do you think about a national gun registry? I know I said something pretty stupid, like that might happen in, let's say, Australia. He said flatly, I mean right here in the USA. Well, I remembered I laughed. I was only five years away from college and the Academy, and I never asked why he would bring that up, but he was a history nut who could chart disarmament back centuries, and the conversation turned to area battlefields. He said he would fight disarmament to the bitter end, would even like a return of the tri-corner hat, but should be long gone by then. And here's why I'm living this memory again. Mr. Dobbs is indeed gone, and that is a pity. He was a GS-15 career officer with ATF. Because of my grade, family contacts and interests, he felt comfortable talking with me. About ten years later I was deputy (DDO) to a gentleman who was like family, he was absolutely brilliant, a term difficult to ascribe to today's suffering system. I once asked him if he thought Americans would ever be disarmed, or our constitution subverted. He said too many Americans like us would never stand for that, either at the ballot box, or any other public pox. But if it did, he said, it would have to start with a national gun registry. First they'd have to know who has the firearms. And there you have it. I seriously don't know why all this just came flooding out, but it's like I said, I find these attacks on the Bill Of Rights to be nothing more than attacks on law abiding citizens, and that is deeply disturbing. Now, making it worse is what I read about the President's new position. Or maybe it's just new to me and I wasn't paying attention. Again. But I was always a supporter. I'm writing him a letter.
     
  3. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,123
    Location:
    Tennessee
    I am a Trump supporter and I agree with you that he does not YET understand the relationship with a UBC and a national registry.

    I am also contacting my elected officials and the White House.

    That said, I am relying on the NRA to communicate with Trump. He has 30 million reasons to listen.

    In any case, I believe RFL subsidies to states to be a foregone conclusion, UNCs to be up in the air and AWBs will not be passed at the moment

    I Expect Trump to stand against AWBs in 2020

    AWBs WILL BE PASSED if the wrong people are elected in 2020.

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...with-confiscation.854702/page-5#post-11201701
     
  4. P5 Guy

    P5 Guy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    2,878
    Location:
    Tampa Bay area
  5. IJ1981

    IJ1981 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2019
    Messages:
    77
    Certainly that was a given for Scott. As your Governor, he rushed Florida's Red Flag bill through and signed it, only a few months after the Parkland shootings.

    Do not turn your back on him!
     
    P5 Guy, Deanimator and Texas10mm like this.
  6. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    13,741
    Can somebody please tell me definitively what happens with our 4473's now? Is this actually a registry, or is the information discarded if the check is successfully completed?
     
  7. Ryanxia

    Ryanxia Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2010
    Messages:
    4,585
    Location:
    'MURICA!
    The make, model & serial # are recorded on the form but not given during the phone call for the NICS background check. ALL information from the NICS call is supposed to be destroyed after 24 hours but is certainly not (agents have brought lists with them with the transaction #'s from such calls). And while gun registration is currently illegal under the 1986 Firearms Owners Protection Act (FOPA) agents will copy forms in mass without authorization. One dealer I know even lost his license after pushing back on the illegal mass copying of 4473's and other dealers stepped forward during the legal battle. The particular agent in this case was even caught on video putting in his own thumb drive to a dealer's computer and copying everything over without authorization. Once all firearm transfers have to go through an FFL it will be very easy to tweak the process to obtain the information.
     
    SilentStalker and P5 Guy like this.
  8. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    13,741
    I was kinda afraid that was the case. :uhoh:

    What happens in a state where if you have a carry permit they accept that instead of doing the NICs check? I bought a gun here in AZ a few months ago (just moved here last year) and the salesman told me even though no permit is required to carry, it's good to get a permit because it's accepted in lieu of a NICs check. (For the record, I was anyway thinking to get one to have the reciprocity if I visit another state, quite a few honor the AZ permit... but I didn't know about the speedier gun purchase advantage.)
     
    P5 Guy likes this.
  9. Texas10mm

    Texas10mm Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    3,077
    Location:
    Not DFW
    Under the law the Dealer has to keep them a minimum of 20 years. After that they can be discarded. If the store closes or loses their FFL they are supposed to send the forms in. There's a warehouse somewhere with boxes of these forms slowing rotting away.
     
    SilentStalker likes this.
  10. vito

    vito Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2004
    Messages:
    721
    Location:
    Northern Illinois
    I think Trump is making the generalized statement about expanding the background checks as a way of blunting some of the media criticisms that he is doing nothing to try to make America safer from mass shootings (not that UBC would do a thing for that goal). My guess is that when it gets down to specifics, he will be proposing a more rigid reporting system for diagnosed mental illness into the national database, and not an expansion of when and how the background check system is to be used. To create a system where I would have to go to an FFL and pay a fee just to let one of my grandchildren try one of my guns at the range is absurd, and I think Trump does or will understand that the gun rights supporters that are a big part of his base will not stand for it. Similar to his voiced support for Red Flag laws. He either already knows or will know how this process can be greatly abused at the expense of law abiding gun owners. I think he will stand firm on the need for real due process protections and penalties for false accusations, and when the Democrats balk he will say that at least he tried but that his political opponents would not work with him to pass an effective and Constitutional bill.
     
    Charlie Horse likes this.
  11. AlexanderA
    • Contributing Member

    AlexanderA Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    6,838
    Location:
    Virginia
    Picture the warehouse scene at the end of "Raiders of the Lost Ark." There's no practical way that the information on those defunct dealer records can be retrieved. Any gun that you bought 20 or 30 years ago is effectively "off the books."

    Also, note the way the ATF conducts their serial number traces. When a gun is recovered in a crime, for example, the ATF contacts the original manufacturer or importer, who then tells the ATF the name of the distributor to which it was sold. Then the ATF contacts the distributor, who tells the name of the dealer. Likewise, the dealer looks up the serial number and tells the ATF the name of the original purchaser. The ATF contacts the original purchaser, but if the gun has been sold to another individual (without a record of who it was), the trail goes cold. Therefore, guns that have changed hands many times are also effectively "off the books."
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  12. FlSwampRat

    FlSwampRat Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2019
    Messages:
    1,499
    Location:
    Broward County, Fl
    NO! Please engage in the conversation. None of us were informed about these subjects before we began reading and discussing with people. It's how we all learned. Being incorrect doesn't mean you're anything other than ill-informed on an issue or subject. You then learn and are no longer so. And, if there's one of you posting, you can bet there's ten people reading who are just as ill informed as you were at that point and everyone benefits. No user on here should castigate and vilify you for not knowing all about something. At least not without them being called to task for their boorish behavior.

    CT was a center for small arms makers back in the day, sad to see how it's turned into California's rival for repressive laws.
     
  13. Ryanxia

    Ryanxia Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2010
    Messages:
    4,585
    Location:
    'MURICA!
    I am not sure but I am under the impression that you still fill the form out with serial #, etc. they just don't run the NICS check.

    Something I completely forgot, I believe when Nevada passed a UBC the FBI said they were not going to do the NICS check for every transfer because they didn't have the manpower.
    And as I mentioned before, I highly doubt they would add sufficient staff, regular firearms checks could start taking as long as NFA items which is 6-12 months.
     
  14. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    6,394
    Location:
    Morgan County, Alabama
    In Alabama, the form 4473 was filled out, and the ccw info was copied onto it. Unfortunatly, on July 23 this year that advantage was lost because a few Alabama sheriffs were issuing ccw permits without doing the nics check, and some ex felons wound up with permits. They won't tell us WHICH sheriffs did this so they can be voted out.
    Our attorney general is reportedly working to correct this nasty situation, but no one knows if a carry permit will ever again be useful for a 4473 instead of the Internet or call-in nics check.
     
    SilentStalker likes this.
  15. FlSwampRat

    FlSwampRat Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2019
    Messages:
    1,499
    Location:
    Broward County, Fl
    Original wait was part of Brady and if you got no response you could turn the firearm over after checking by phone after online application that there was no update.
    Under the new law I have had multiple checks that never got a final yay or nay answer in 30 days, at which time, of course, the request expired and customer, if they wished to continue had to reapply, complete with another b/r check fee.
     
    Howland likes this.
  16. FlSwampRat

    FlSwampRat Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2019
    Messages:
    1,499
    Location:
    Broward County, Fl
    Don't know about in states where a carry permit obviates a b/r check, all it saves you is the waiting period. I can understand the thinking about still requiring the check as a cwp is good for quite a few years during which someone can do something nefarious. What I can't understand is the whole background check and waiting period for LEO's. The person's department hands them a 9mm or some such but the person has to wait 5 biz days to bet a .22 plinker to take his kid to the range.
    Why can't laws be logical and make sense?

    B/r checks definitely take longer on the weekends here with all the gun shows. drain on the system as they're not automatically computer generated and a living breathing human being has to run them at state level
     
  17. P5 Guy

    P5 Guy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    2,878
    Location:
    Tampa Bay area
    How long does the CMP hold your purchase info?
     
  18. FlSwampRat

    FlSwampRat Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2019
    Messages:
    1,499
    Location:
    Broward County, Fl
    CMP?
     
  19. IJ1981

    IJ1981 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2019
    Messages:
    77
    Canadian Mounted Police. They have been holding your information on handguns since 1934, and have yet, other than tangentially, to solve a single crime by their own admission.
     
  20. FlSwampRat

    FlSwampRat Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2019
    Messages:
    1,499
    Location:
    Broward County, Fl
    As a resident of the state of Florida in the US, I doubt the CMP has a file on me. I have never been to Canada, although the Hockey Hall of Fame is on the bucket list. That said, it does seem like a waste of time maintaining that database for no reason.
     
  21. IJ1981

    IJ1981 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2019
    Messages:
    77
    A wise man! :D
     
  22. vito

    vito Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2004
    Messages:
    721
    Location:
    Northern Illinois
    A national data base does not help in solving crimes. It helps enormously when the government decides to demand the turn in of all firearms.
     
    IJ1981 and P5 Guy like this.
  23. P5 Guy

    P5 Guy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    2,878
    Location:
    Tampa Bay area
    Civilian Marksmanship Program where all the good M1 Garands come from. Used to be the DCM.
     
  24. SilentStalker

    SilentStalker Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,572
    Location:
    Somewhere in the U.S., London, or Australia
    This! After being involved in the process and knowing some agents on a personal basis, the info does indeed get copied more than I’d like to admit!

    Yep! That’s the only saving grace we have. Not that anyone is doing anything illegal. I rarely sale guns once I have them so I’d suspect the original owner trace might show up some weapons and owners that still have them. It will just be up to the owners whether or not they will be forthcoming.
     
  25. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    13,741
    Wow, in AZ the whole thing takes a few minutes. :)
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice