Wi - Area Police Rip Plan For Hidden Weapons

[Mark Tyson]

AREA POLICE RIP PLAN FOR HIDDEN WEAPONS

Copyright 2003 Madison Newspapers, Inc.

Capital Times (Madison, WI)

September 8, 2003 Monday, SECOND Edition

Local police officials today called on the state Legislature to reject proposed legislation to legalize carrying concealed weapons.

Monona Police Chief Brad Keil, head of the Dane County Police Chiefs Association, said claims that it would make Wisconsin safer "just aren't valid," adding that the legislation could contribute to an increase in gun-related deaths.

University of Wisconsin Police Chief Sue Riseling said the bill would allow the carrying of concealed weapons in classrooms, laboratories and dormitories.


Most assaults on the campus are among those who know each other, not strangers, and what is now a campus punch could turn into a gun shot, she suggested.

At a morning press conference, Dane County Sheriff Gary Hamblin added that just the record-keeping involved under the bill would worsen a current backlog in his office. "I don't carry a gun when I'm not working," said Hamblin, adding that that could change if the bill becomes law.

Wisconsin already is "one of the safest states in the country," said Keil, noting that the current law has been on the books for 130 years. Allowing the carrying of concealed weapons would "change our whole mind-set," he said, explaining the impact on police.

Currently, 33 states allow citizens to carry a concealed weapon without first convincing authorities that they have a compelling need, according to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.

Under the bill, which will be the topic of a public hearing Tuesday, a Wisconsin citizen at least 21 years old could carry a concealed weapon after completing a 22-hour firearms training course. Barred would be felons, those who are declared incompetent or drug dependent, and those ineligible because of federal law.

The bill is championed by state Sen. Dave Zien, R-Eau Claire, and state Rep. Scott Gunderson, R-Waterford, who say it would reduce violent crime and make Wisconsin a safer state.

"It's something that's a right that was taken away 130 years ago, and we need to give that right back," said Gunderson, who operates a sports shop.

Keil noted that Zien has argued that violent crime has decreased in states allowing concealed weapons.

"That's true. But violent crime is going down everywhere, but the gun lobby is not talking about that," Keil said. "There is not credible evidence that concealed weapons reduce crime."

E-mail: [email protected]

 

[Sunray]

"There is not credible evidence that concealed weapons reduce crime." While there is credible evidence that any place that bans or seriously curtails the private owership of firearms, firearm related and violent crime increases significantly. A fact the anti-firearm lobby preferrs to ignore.
This civil servant should be told to stop sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong. Any employee in any company would be fired immediately if he or she opens his or her flap about how the company is run. So should cops. No matter what "rank" or position they hold.

 

[TallPine]

Allowing the carrying of concealed weapons would "change our whole mind-set," he said, explaining the impact on police.

Yeah, I bet ... like maybe as in "citizens have rights, too"

 

[Elmer Snerd]

Monona Police Chief Brad Keil, head of the Dane County Police Chiefs Association, said claims that it would make Wisconsin safer "just aren't valid," adding that the legislation could contribute to an increase in gun-related deaths.

Most assaults on the campus are among those who know each other, not strangers, and what is now a campus punch could turn into a gun shot, she suggested

It's the same tired, old, boring, fearmongering, unoriginal, illogical, and WRONG "Our streets will run red with blood! People will kill each other for wearing white shoes after Labor Day(or some other minor offense)!" anti whining. Sigh.

 

[Tamara]

Anyone know why unabashedly anti-rights, fear-mongering journalists consider "Hidden Weapons" to have so much more of an impact on the bleating herd than "Concealed Weapons"?

Also, have any of you Wisconsinites noticed lake Michigan seeming redder lately in the direction of the Great Lakes State or a torrent of hemoglobin pouring across your common border with Minnesota?

 

[pax]

This article is about laws and about politics, so it really belongs in the Legal and Political forum. Moving it there.

pax

 

[BerettaNut92]

Most assaults on the campus are among those who know each other, not strangers, and what is now a campus punch could turn into a gun shot, she suggested.

Maybe they wouldn't punch them if the victim carried a gun? Hmm?

 

[Daniel T]

They said the exact same crap before Texas legalized CCW.

"It's baaaaaahhd! It's baaaaaahhd!"

 

[Standing Wolf]

"I don't carry a gun when I'm not working," said Hamblin...

Well, somebody's got to hold down the far left end of the bell curve, I guess.

From the sound of it, Wisconsin's leftist extremists are trotting out the same tired, shop-worn objections that have been tried and rejected in state after state. They're just too dumb to look at the evidence and draw the obvious conclusions, I guess.

 

[litman252]

I listend to talk shows in Madison as much as possible today, You guys should have heard it,

" I was in Texas when the legalized CCW, 8-9 people a day were shot by these hot headed cowboys"

" You are 3-4 times more likely to be shot in your home it you own a gun, you want those odds on the street??"

Don't renember exactly but someting like....."(a BS statistic) number of cops are killed by there own guns each year, now citizens want this ability also?"

Man I was steaming, Thankfully both of the hosts, 1 Republican, 1 Democratic where for CCW. the majority of calls were positive.

Tony

 

[Monkeyleg]

The hearing room was so crowded that they opened an overflow room for the "peons." When more peons showed up, they opened another, then another, then another.

The rooms were crowded and hot, so I found room 300-N, where all the anti-gun cops like the one mentioned above were hanging out, drinking coffee and eating donuts, while they awaited their turns to testify.

I was the only "citizen" in the room and, while I wore a suit and tie, my "Concealed Carry now" sticker on my lapel gave me away. After awhile, the elite brass seemed to ignore my presence and started laughing at the testimony of the victims and the pro-CCW supporters.

I was particularly struck by one chief, perhaps because he didn't look much more than forty years old or so. He looked every bit the politician, complete with the Trent Lott plastic hair. When he took off his coat, I noticed the 2" S&W J-frame snubbie on his belt that has probably never left its holster.

When the committees' discussion turned to training requirements, he was the first to start cracking jokes about "ya, they only need to hit a barn." I was sorely tempted to challenge him to some range time. He can use his snubbie; I'll use my .45.

The chair-polishers got a little comeupance when a couple of members of our group stopped in the room to talk to me. Not able to wear their dress blues, they nevertheless had t-shirts with the department emblems on them. Perhaps afraid of some sort of fragging, the chair-polishers refused to let us sit in the room again after the lunch break.

I don't hate cops. Not at all. But these bunch of bubble-heads should be bounced out on their cheese-butts before they can harm the populace any further.

 

[2dogs]

Teresa Sweet came to the state Capitol on Tuesday to describe her rape by three men in 1992 and to implore Wisconsin lawmakers to give her a chance to legally carry a concealed weapon


Yes, this is America in 2003, where a woman has to BEG for the right to protect herself from rapists. Aren't you proud?


Madison - Teresa Sweet came to the state Capitol on Tuesday to describe her rape by three men in 1992 and to implore Wisconsin lawmakers to give her a chance to legally carry a concealed weapon by junking the state's 130-year-old prohibition on the practice.

"Had I had a gun in my purse or on my person, the moment I moved across that room and saw him coming, trust me, he would have heard me say 'no,' " Sweet told legislators. "Nothing speaks louder than a barrel of a gun pointed at you."

Sweet's emotional recounting of her ordeal came during a day of sharply divided testimony that pitted concealed-carry advocates against those who contend that allowing concealed weapons would boost gun crime and make the streets more dangerous.

"We demand concealed carry in Wisconsin. It isn't a privilege to protect ourselves - it's a right," said Sweet, of Hammond.

But Milwaukee County District Attorney E. Michael McCann told a joint meeting of the Senate Judiciary and Assembly Criminal Justice committees that allowing people to carry concealed weapons would make Wisconsin a less secure place.

"I truly fear that the more guns that are around, the more dangerous it will be," McCann said. "My community, my family and I will be safer without a concealed-carry law."

During 2001, 2002 and the first six months of this year, McCann said, 4,134 gunshots were documented in the city of Milwaukee. No one was hit by 3,063 of those bullets, while 1,071 shots injured or killed someone.

McCann said allowing more weapons into the community would only drive up those numbers.

"It will expand the culture of gun-carrying," said McCann, who noted that gunfire is a familiar sound in too many Milwaukee neighborhoods. "I don't want citizens deciding that since they're carrying a firearm, 'I'm going to save the day. I'm going to pull out my gun and start to shoot.' "

McCann said he was also concerned that concealed carry would lead to incidents of road rage escalating into gunfire.

Wisconsin is one of six states that outright ban carrying concealed weapons.

A crowd waiting to testify on the measure filled a large hearing room and overflowed into three other Capitol conference rooms.

The legislation - sponsored by Sen. Dave Zien (R-Eau Claire) and Rep. Scott Gunderson (R-Waterford) - would allow residents 21 and older who have completed a 22-hour firearms training course and who are not incompetent or drug-dependent to carry a concealed weapon.

They would have to buy a $75 permit, good for five years, from a county sheriff's department. State officials estimate that about 30,000 Wisconsinites would apply for a permit in the first year.

The bill would ban weapons from being carried in police stations, prisons, jails, school administration buildings and airports.

Zien said that the measure would save lives, because criminals would be less likely to prey on victims they know could be armed.

"Every time you're in an audience or within a group of people, if somebody starts killing people, you would pray that someone has a concealed firearm," Zien said. "It's about time the state of Wisconsin said, 'Hey, man! Hallelujah! We want to be the 45th state to allow individuals the right to protect themselves.' "

Sen. Tim Carpenter (D-Milwaukee), playing off the old Capitol adage about "millions for Milwaukee, pennies for Polk," said the bill could boost violence in high-crime, urban areas.

"If we pass this, it's going to be permits for Polk and murders for Milwaukee," Carpenter said.

Carpenter urged the bill's sponsors to allow Milwaukee County to opt out of the law through a referendum vote.

But Zien said that idea was not acceptable, and that "people in urban areas benefit the most from concealed carry," because they face the threat of crime more regularly.

"Ninety-eight percent of the time, at the scene of a crime when a gun is pulled, the criminal, druggie or wacko runs away," Zien insisted.

Zien predicted the bill would pass the GOP-controlled Legislature and be sent to Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle, who has expressed opposition to the bill.

"I do not believe that Wisconsin is a safer place by people carrying concealed weapons," Doyle said, signaling a likely veto of the bill if Republicans who control the Legislature send it to his desk during the fall legislative session.

If Doyle vetoes the measure, Zien predicted there would be political backlash that would lead to Republicans taking more than two-thirds of the seats in each house - a number that would override any future vetoes.

Susan Riseling, president of the Wisconsin Chiefs of Police Association, questioned the need for the bill because Wisconsin's violent crime rate has fallen 34.7% since 1991.

She also objected to a provision of the legislation that would grant reciprocity to permit holders from other states, because their standards would not match Wisconsin's.

In addition, Riseling, police chief at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, said that new federal regulations on medical records disclosure would make it difficult to confirm whether permit applicants had a history of mental illness.

The Milwaukee Police Association, however, backed the measure.

"The good law-abiding citizens deserve every opportunity to defend themselves against persons committing heinous crimes," police union President Bradley DeBraska said in written testimony.

 

[Marko Kloos]

Anyone know why unabashedly anti-rights, fear-mongering journalists consider "Hidden Weapons" to have so much more of an impact on the bleating herd than "Concealed Weapons"?

From a linguistic standpoint, "hidden" has a more ominous connotation than "concealed". People who "hide" things usually have nefarious plans, you see.

"Concealed" sounds too technical/neutral to get a good emotional response, and many readers in the target audience don't really know what the word means anyway.

 

[El Tejon]

Tamara, the use of the term "hidden" comes, as most of their terms, from Joshie. He used it in the late '80s after Floriduh's reform was passed and HCI/NCBH feared copycat reforms springing up across the nation as has been happening.

HCI needs a victory to gain mo for next year's big fight. Take it away from them, Wisconsin!

 

[artjs]

I wrote to Gov. Doyle today, after being at the meeting on Tuesday. Figured a little NUDGE might help.....All you other Wisconsinites, please start your letter writing.

I would like to see the govenor SUPPORT the proposed PPA/CCW (personal protection act/carry concealed weapons) bills that are in hearings at this time.

As a citizen of this state, I would like the opportunity to be able to defend myself and my loved ones against the criminal element in today's society. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the police to be everywhere and see everything and I want to be able to defend myself (and loved ones) if an unthinkable attack against me happens.

The gloom and doomers that spoke against the bills on Tuesday 9/9/03 are raising the same issues that most, if not all, of the states that have recently passed similar legislation to enable their citizens to be able to carry arms. Blood in the street, shootouts in the OK corral, etc. None of the FEARS have come true and there has NEVER been an occation were a LAW ABIDING CITIZEN has ever killed a LEO with his weapon.

Please re-consider your position against the bills and allow us, one of the last six states to be able to carry concealed. Please note that Missouri, who's govenor had vetoed their CCW bills, has already had his veto overturned in the Assembly and their Senate is looking at a veto overturn vote today.

Thank you
Artjs

 

[Standing Wolf]

...a torrent of hemoglobin pouring across your common border with Minnesota?

Minnesota's leftist extremists are still eagerly awaiting the promised blood bath; then again, they're still waiting for Mondale to take his place in the U.S. Senate.

 

[litman252]

I heard on the radio, "Wis. is now one of only 5 states to not allow CCW" I could not believe they worded it this way, expected something like,"Only 5 states are still clining to the humanity" They never did say anything about MO. though. Even gave some press time to CCW supporters against the Gov.


Tony

 

[feedthehogs]

The bodies are sure stacking up in other CCW states.

What ever happened to the facts and not theories, suppositions or just plain lies?

 

[geekWithA.45]

CCW has been around for like 20 years...

and this fearmongering nonsense is still being uttered?

Aren't they embarassed to spew this bile?

 

[litman252]

Far from it, they are getting more into it if anything. Pretty damn sad. Sister in law belives it to, hook, line and sinker.
Tony

 

[artjs]

Got my reply back from Gov Doyle today.........TYPICAL gloom & doom as follows:

September 12, 2003

Dear Friends:

Thank you for contacting me about concealed carry legislation that is under
consideration in the Capitol. I always welcome the opportunity to respond to the citizens of Wisconsin.

The legislation sponsored by Senator Dave Zien (R-Eau Claire) and Rep. Scott Gunderson (R-Waterford), has numerous problems. It would not deter crime, but would be harmful to public safety in Wisconsin.

Supporters of concealed carry legislation often claim that it would deter
violent crime. In fact, violent crime has dropped more in recent years in
states with strict prohibitions on CCW than it has in states with weaker CCW restrictions. Moreover, the number of crime victims who successfully use firearms to defend themselves is actually quite small, according to the FBI.


This legislation would pose a threat to public safety by allowing the
carrying of concealed and dangerous weapons into child care centers, banks, shopping malls, hospitals, churches, public buildings like the state
capitol, state parks, restaurants, university residence halls, and certain
taverns. It also would not permit business owners from barring concealed
weapons in their places of business.

For these reasons and others the International Brotherhood of Police
Officers, the International Association of Chiefs of Police, the Wisconsin
Chiefs of Police Association, the Wisconsin Law Enforcement Coalition,
Wisconsin Medical Society, Wisconsin Academy of Family Physicians, Wisconsin Coalition Against Domestic Violence, Wisconsin Council of Churches, and the Wisconsin Council on Children and Families are all opposed to this legislation.

Our laws with regard to concealed carry have served Wisconsin well for more than 130 years. I see no reason to turn back the clock on public safety more than a century in order to support such a flawed piece of legislation.

Again, thank you for writing. Please contact my office any time I can be of
assistance to you. Best wishes.

Sincerely,
Jim Doyle
Governor