Wild Hair for IMR4895 308 Cast Loads

[TheClasonater]

Been accumulating components and tooling to start casting 45ACP, which will probably commence here in a couple months.

Problem is, I cant seem to get my mind off of trying it for 308win. Why not? It'd be fun and would give a other avenue of exploration. Thinking of using IMR4895 because that's mostly in my stockpile right now. I do have some IMR4064, but haven't purchased anymore. I don't have any molds yet, but am leaning toward 165s or heavier, quite possibly the 180 range.

As the title says, this is just a wild hair at the moment, but I am curious about your mileage with this powder and cast loads.

 

[Anchorite]

There’s a write up in some old NRA publication about cast bullets in the 308. Might try to scour the internet. I used to shoot a long time ago at another range than my current range where there was an older fellow with a 40x 308 and he exclusively shot his cast bullets.

So yes, it can be (and has been) done. Just remember - it’s the journey, and not the destination.

 

[Savage30L]

That's "Hare", not "Hair".

 

[TheClasonater]

That's "Hare", not "Hair".

 

[PapaG]

I have shot hundreds if not thousands of cast bullets out of 30-30, 308, 30-06, plus much bigger bore firearms.
Old wheelweights work fine for the +1600 fps stuff with gas checks and just about any soft lead works with black powder loads as long as you use plenty of lube.
311291, 311413, 31316, 458124 are my go to bullets.
Best 308 load for me: 311291 Hornady gas check, 24 grains4198. Same for06 but with a tuft of kapok over the powder.

 

[243winxb]

I have loaded cast in 30-30 & 30-06, using IMR4895. The bullet has to fit the chamber. I would avoid "bore riders" because they may not fit into the rifling. To large in diameter. CO L would be extra short.

Hodgdon has reduced load info for H4895. Can be used with IMR4895 also. IMO.

Edit/ add- i tested kapok. Didnt help accuracy. Fillers mostly for smaller amounts of Red Dot type powders.
I avoid double based powders containing nitroglycerin, for down loading. . Not in H or IMR 4895 Powder, they are single base.

My Homecast bullet from years ago.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The reduced loads using H4895 from Hodgdon work well. They have not tested IMR4895 and they don't recommend using it because they are close but not identical powders.

When IMR SR4759 was available it was THE powder for loading cast bullets in rifle ammo. Hodgdon claims Trail Boss is the substitute but it's not IMO. AA5744 is a very good choice and what I would use.

It's possible Hodgdon has changed it's position on IMR4895 but doubtful. Couldn't hurt to write and ask them.

 

[KY DAN]

!!!!DOUBLE CHECK THIS INFO!!!!

A 1919 BELT fed Browning full auto will run like a champ with 35 grains imr 4895 and and a lyman 311291 projectile.

Kent Lamont proved this

 

[TheClasonater]

Thanks for the responses fellers. I will write Hodgdon and ask, if anything out of curiosity. In lymans 3rd edition (cast bullets), the one I have in front of me at the moment, I find it difficult that H4895 and IMR4064 get so much love, only because I thought imr4064 is slower burning than imr4895 by a blonde one.

I sense myself going down a rabbithole but its fun nonetheless.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Thanks for the responses fellers. I will write Hodgdon and ask, if anything out of curiosity. In lymans 3rd edition (cast bullets), the one I have in front of me at the moment, I find it difficult that H4895 and IMR4064 get so much love, only because I thought imr4064 is slower burning than imr4895 by a blonde one.

I sense myself going down a rabbithole but its fun nonetheless.

H4895 and IMR4895 are not the same powder.

 

[AJC1]

I haven't loaded h4895 yet but imr 4895 is about a full grain faster than n135 at max loads. For cast rifle bullets accuracy falls apart before it pressures out... id use the h4895 start data and see how it goes. I sometimes bracket a few in the same range and just stay in the middle.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...sQFnoECA0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0GdjFBvHK-FSlzRR01UKAI

 

[TheClasonater]

H4895 and IMR4895 are not the same powder.

They aren't, but what I was going for with that, is that the manual lists a slower powder than both, but omits one.

AJC1 my internets being dumb, ill check the link when it comes back around. For accuracy.... I figured accuracy at higher pressures takes a nose dive. Thats what the research says so far.

Once again, thanks all. Getting some good ideas so far.

it’s the journey, and not the destination.

Wise words

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

For cast rifle bullets accuracy falls apart before it pressures out...

This is very often true. Most shooters go to about 1800 fps with cast very easily; beyond that takes some effort. I have read about some few taking cast in 308 to 2500+ fps, but that is the exception rather than the rule, and it takes a great deal of effort, testing, and time.

As for the 4895 powders in cast - I have used I4895 quite a bit in 7.62x54r. I shot it with a 210 gr cast, around 28 grains of I4895, and used a 1/2 gr puff of Dacron to gently fill the case. The ES & SD numbers were very good, which shows consistent ignition and powder burn.
I took it to a bit above 1800 fps.
I stopped doing it because, at 100 yds (which is the majority of my cast rifle shooting), it wasn't any more accurate than a load of 18 gr of 2400 powder. The 2400 load is not only less expensive, but it is much less time consuming to load than the Dacron puff/4895 load.

I have found that a great many of the middle-burning single-base extruded rifle powders work very well when downloaded. This is only my experience in the 3+ decades of my reloading journey, and not to be taken as Gospel, or attempted by neophyte reloaders.

If you wonder about your experience, and if it is enough to try handloading off the manual, then you are not ready.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

I haven't loaded h4895 yet but imr 4895 is about a full grain faster than n135 at max loads. For cast rifle bullets accuracy falls apart before it pressures out... id use the h4895 start data and see how it goes. I sometimes bracket a few in the same range and just stay in the middle.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...sQFnoECA0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0GdjFBvHK-FSlzRR01UKAI

I love these older data books. Where else can one find data for 44 Mag (rifle) with IMR 4895, 3031, 4064, and 4350 ?

 

[Jim Watson]

They have not tested IMR4895 and they don't recommend using it because they are close but not identical powders.

Back when DuPont made IMR powders in the USA, their literature said that IMR 4895 could be loaded as low as 3/5 of maximum.
Awful close to 60%, isn't it? Old NRA books and articles included IMR 4895 for cast bullets.

Does that apply to the current Canadian import? I doubt Hodgdon will say so. They are vested in their Australian import.

 

[35 Whelen]

Cast bullets in any .30 caliber rifle is a fun journey. I know you are specifically asking about IMR4895, but I've had very good results in all my .30 calibers using common shotgun and pistol powders such as Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique, AA#7 and 2400, and they require quite a bit less powder and I never used any kind of filler. If I had to pick just one it'd easily be Red Dot.



35W

 

[TheClasonater]

Back when DuPont made IMR powders in the USA, their literature said that IMR 4895 could be loaded as low as 3/5 of maximum.
Awful close to 60%, isn't it? Old NRA books and articles included IMR 4895 for cast bullets.

2nd mention of the NRA books. Gonna have to spend some time tonight searching around for em. If that's what's in the link a couple posts above I'm still having trouble with it.

Cast bullets in any .30 caliber rifle is a fun journey. I know you are specifically asking about IMR4895, but I've had very good results in all my .30 calibers using common shotgun and pistol powders such as Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique, AA#7 and 2400, and they require quite a bit less powder and I never used any kind of filler. If I had to pick just one it'd easily Red Dot.
35W

No doubt going to try pistol powders.. particularly for cost factor. Those look like great results, and I really like the lines of that stock on you're 1903.

If you wonder about your experience, and if it is enough to try handloading off the manual, then you are not ready.

Appreciate the concern. However, that's why I come here, its a part of practical research. Not lookin for shortcuts, but having the ability for others share experiences is just as valuable a tool as a manual or press. It also gives them a chance to share something they otherwise may not get to. Thank you for sharing yours. If we listen to everyone that comes along that says "you are not ready" than how do we gain experience?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Back when DuPont made IMR powders in the USA, their literature said that IMR 4895 could be loaded as low as 3/5 of maximum.
Awful close to 60%, isn't it? Old NRA books and articles included IMR 4895 for cast bullets.

Does that apply to the current Canadian import? I doubt Hodgdon will say so. They are vested in their Australian import.

That's good information, I didn't know that. Thank you...

 

[AJC1]

They aren't, but what I was going for with that, is that the manual lists a slower powder than both, but omits one.

AJC1 my internets being dumb, ill check the link when it comes back around. For accuracy.... I figured accuracy at higher pressures takes a nose dive. Thats what the research says so far.

Once again, thanks all. Getting some good ideas so far.


Wise words

I tried the link and it's just an imr load manual Google search... it's there and old data. I'll post the clip from the manual for 30-30 so you can see why you should download it.

 

[AJC1]

Marvin Stuart has a few of them
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gQFnoECCQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3AWIEHENZFOIujkk-qO8cZ

 

[TheClasonater]

I need to learn how to use Google better!

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

Appreciate the concern. However, that's why I come here, its a part of practical research. Not lookin for shortcuts, but having the ability for others share experiences is just as valuable a tool as a manual or press. It also gives them a chance to share something they otherwise may not get to. Thank you for sharing yours. If we listen to everyone that comes along that says "you are not ready" than how do we gain experience?

Please don't take my post personally. When I typed about "you" it was not intended at a single person, not you particularly. It was intended as more of a societal "you", a "you" in general.

I have no idea if you personally are experienced enough to try hand loading (off manual) - as opposed to reloading (using tested loading data). I cannot take that decision.

What I was trying to convey to people, in general, is that if one has questions about one's ability to do hand loading, then one is probably not ready.

I do not have any intention of casting aspersions on any single persons abilities.

 

[TheClasonater]

I understand now.. honestly, I did read it as if it were intended my way. I was like, "this guy just gave a super good response to my original question then wrapped it up with a you ain't ready....!?!!?" After reading it again from that perspective, I totally get it, and totally agree pardon my rashness.

 

[Charlie98]

Like many here, I have a fair amount of experience loading cast bullets in rifle cartridges, including the .308. There are obviously a number of avenues you can take to get there, but here is my highway to success...

Pick a powder that will get you good case fill, efficient burn, and reasonable velocity. For me, that would be powders in the IMR4198/H4198/AA5744/RL7 range. You can load everything from .22's to big .45's with that powder, all within a reasonable velocity envelope for cast bullets. No fillers, no worry about double-charging with tiny charges of pistol powders, no worry about irregular burn characteristics trying to download a slower powder (the caveat to that would be, as was mentioned, H4895, because of it's ability to be downloaded, per Hodgdon.)

Personally, I don't cast... I am at the mercy of commercially cast bullets. Having said that, I have no problems with leading, accuracy, or poor performance... mostly because I have matched the bullet diameter to the bore of the firearm it's going into, and because I keep my velocities reasonable for the hardness and alloy of the cast bullet.

IMR4895 is a great .308 powder, no doubt... I use it, too. It would not be my first choice for cast bullets. For that matter, I'd rather have IMR3031 than IMR4895 for cast. I use IMR3031 in the .348WCF because I need the additional velocity IMR3031 provides to get my 200grn bullet out past 500yds, it works very well in that manner. My concern with IMR4895 is you would be driving your bullets fast, right off the bat... maybe too fast. If one of the factors is off... think alloy and hardness, bullet diameter, base obturation, etc... you could wind up with a shotgun rather than a rifle. That very same thing happened to me with a pre-war Savage 99 in .30-30, where my standard cast bullet (the same one I used successfully in my Savage 99 in .308...) wouldn't hit the paper at 50yds. As soon as I ciphered out the bore diameter, and used an appropriately sized bullet, everything fell into place.

One other item... I would suggest you look into the Lyman M-die, or similar products, for loading cast bullets. The M-die opens up the case neck a specific amount, and flares the case mouth slightly... this allows you to seat the cast bullet without shaving lead, and the properly sized neck won't swage the cast bullet down as it's being seated.

 

[Jim Watson]

I use IMR3031 in the .348WCF because I need the additional velocity IMR3031 provides to get my 200grn bullet out past 500yds,

Sounds like a long shot for a Model 71. Or do you have a high wall or some such?