Will a prosecuting attorney use your concealed permit against you?

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There seems to be a lot of confusion about the implications of Jeff's post. Let me quickly sum up.

It isn't good to joke about committing homicide if you actually commit homicide.

is that about right Jeff?
 
1. you have to look at case law history. 2 how the state defines justified homicide. 3 how a grand jury tends to look at dead scumbags. Aboob is what we call a (edited for content) a ****e farmer out here. Bottom deal they pull a stunt where they need shot it not a problem. Some people stirr up things just so they can justify making a living with out having to have a job...Aboob comes to mind......
 
Alan,

Gem and I seem to be overlooking one point, the anti gun hot dog prosecutor, one that shares the opinions held by some in police management, and possibly some street cops too, that being that they, the citizenry do not need, nor should they have those things, guns.

A person involved in a shooting will also have to worry about the jurors in the event the case reaches trial. It has been mentioned already in this thread...but the black hole that is the jury does not produce predictable results.

I do not offer the following anecdote as a defining example, merely as an illustration. I recently completed a semester of Trial Advocacy in my third year of law school. Our final exam is a short trial. The instructor is an actual judge and the trial is conducted with undergrad polisci students as jurors. The mock case itself was a murder/self-defense case.

The base facts were as follows. We had a smaller statured man (5'6" 140 lbs.) facing off against a larger man (6'2" 195 lbs.) outside of a bar. The larger man was advancing on the smaller man as the smaller man gave ground. As the larger man closed the gap, the smaller man drew a gun and fired one shot, killing his attacker. These facts were not in dispute. What was in dispute was whether or not the large man was carrying a knife (or was known to carry a knife) and if, as a result, the defendant was justified in using deadly force.

The case DID NOT address the legality or illegality of the defendant's choice to carry a firearm in the first place.

Long story short. I worked this case with my partner as defense counsel. I also sat through a classmate's trial...and further, acted as a witness in a third. The result in the trial I conducted was a hung jury. The result in the both the trial I watched, and the trial I acted as a defense witness in, was a 1st degree murder verdict against the defendant.

At the conclusion of each case, the jury actually deliberates in front of the judge and the students...so we got to see and hear the decision making process. In my case we got a hung jury...with the holdout wanting 2nd degree murder. Her reason was this..."he carried a gun and thus he was looking to use it."

In the case I watched, despite the fact that the key prosecution witness admitted that the decedent carried a knife, the jury returned a 1st degree murder verdict. I asked the jury panel afterwards what their political position was regarding firearms. One juror explained..."I believe in the illegification of handguns, but I didn't let that factor into my decision." Another stated that she believed "that people have a right to own guns and to defend themselves but that they shouldn't carry and look for a fight."

In the third case, the jury decided that the defense's character witness (me) was not credible and thus tossed the whole notion that the decedent was known for carrying a knife.

What does all this mean...? Hell if I know....other than to say that we cannot expect a jury to understand the concept of self-defense...much less rely on them to apply the facts to the law accurately.

In short....the prosecutor's office CAN come after you. MIGHT come after you...MIGHT use the fact that you are a CC permit holder...a gunnie and/or a subscriber to SWAT magazine against you...and a jury MIGHT decide that you were itching to get all Dirty Harry on the bad guys of the world.

As always...tread lightly.

That being said, I'm not a lawyer and YMMV.
 
Reading the examples, it seems to me the biggest problem is not the DA and what evidence he will try to use but the jury pool. And this is indeed a valid concern. The right jury pool can make an enormous difference, which is one reason those of you in the bad parts of the country (the urban east, parts of the midwest, urban California, etc) might consider relocating.

If you're in a community of people with a longstanding tradition of firearm ownership you are likely to draw a much more favorable jury. And the jury matters a thousand times more than the DA once the matter goes to court.
 
Can't a judge or higher courts overturn a verdict if it seems like it's against the law? Like if the prosecuting attorney keeps on bringing up you having a permit and the defense attorney keeps on saying that it's legal and it seems like that had a big impact on the decision?
 
I understand your point lysander, but the majority of college students have no practical life experience and do not represent a normal jury. PolySci students are worse, because they are probably more opinionated and less likely to be objective. Just my opinion. :)

I agree with Cosmoline. It depends on where you are and what pool of people you will draw from. Also, I bet most jurors will not be college grads.
 
In Utah, most jury members would think..."Hmmmm, he had a permit? He is probably a responsible citizen."
Furthermore, if you didn't want that evidence to come in, you could file a Motion in Limine to exclude it is "irrelevent." Personally, I would want it to come in.

What would a prosecutor do? They come in all shapes, sizes and types. There are good ones and bad ones.
For instance, a cop once argued that an NRA bumber sticker gave him probable cause to search a vehicle for weapons.
 
In the NFL, professional football teams compete with the single goal being to win. They will kick the ball, throw the ball, stomp on the ball, anything as long as it will help them win. The whole thing is about massive egos and an exhibition of power. The ball is at the center of the action, but no one really cares about it.

In a court trial, professional lawyers will compete with the single goal being to win. They will treat the defendant the way pros treat the football, for the same reasons. The defendant is at the center of the action, but no one really cares about him.

Jim
 
About college kids as mock jurors - that is an empirical question. The jury research comparing verdicts between real juries and student mock juries shows pretty close agreement.
 
lysander:

Interesting comment you offered. Aside from "most college students having no practical life experience", this offered by another poster, the following comes to mind, re jury trials. You simply cannot fortell what sort of people, perhaps spelled idiots, will or might be encountered on a trial jury.

GuyWithQuestions:

I believe that the answer to your question is YES.
 
Having been on a couple of juries, done some work for lawyers on jury opinions and read tons of jury research - you might be better off with college kids who can understand issues as compared to some with 'practical' life experience.

If your defense means that someone can see through rhetoric and understand facts - well, go watch voir dire some day.

One anecdote, a colleague of mine who is a very well educated biologist gets called for a civil case involving a law suit over pollution of some biological creek system. He is asked during voir dire whether he will just listen to the presentation by the lawyers and expert witness and not use his own expertise in the jury discussions. When he stops laughing, he says NO!

So does he make it to the jury?

I guess I would never make it to a jury on a gun issue as one side or the other would think that I would be antithetical to their view.

I think we have made it clear by now that the benefits of the CCW or CHL document are clear for you to have it. Then, could it be possible that some DA might try to use it against you and/or other aggression priming techniques or exhibits (like your blaster or internet ravings) - sure that might happen.

The best answer is one in an article a few years ago in a professional journal dealing with prejudice against women strongly defending themselves (they are seen as violating gender roles and NOT sympathetic victims - how about that?). The author said that women should not abandon effective means of self-defense but have a lawyer that is knowledgeable on self-defense issues and specifically on the weapons, etc. related issues that influence juries such that these tactics on the prosecution's part can be dealt with. Same for cops in trouble.

Note these are for the 'good' shoot. Such techniques can be used to defend bad people but that is our system.

Happy New Year!!
 
GEM writes:


Having been on a couple of juries, done some work for lawyers on jury opinions and read tons of jury research - you might be better off with college kids who can understand issues as compared to some with 'practical' life experience.

-----------------

The above excerpt assumes that college students can actually "understand issues", I take it. While the assumption could prove correct, how certain of it are you?
 
As I said, research supports that mock jurors of college kids come to similar conclusions as real juries.

Second, what makes you think the 'real life experience' crowd filtering through WalMart is a set of Einsteins in the rough, thoughtful, cynical and rational?

I would prefer to have a jury of educated individuals with a tad of knowledge IF I were going to make a defense that had some complexity.
 
Could I use my pepper spray to counter the attorney?


You know, I read this and thought that would be an extremely effective counter:

Prosecutor: Your honor, the defendant willfully...

You: <Pshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh>

Prosecutor: <cough cough cough cough cough cough.....>


Maybe I enjoyed that more from my.... low opinion of lawyers...
 
In the NFL, professional football teams compete with the single goal being to win. They will kick the ball, throw the ball, stomp on the ball, anything as long as it will help them win.

GO PATS! :evil:
 
Gem:

I wonder as to why you inject Walmart and or people who might shop there into this discussion.

Otherwise, please read through, if you haven't already, post # 75 by lysander, who I believe spoke of college students, and mock trials, as well as jury verdicts.
 
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