Will Europe arm Red China?

Status
Not open for further replies.

FRIZ

Member
Joined
May 24, 2003
Messages
193
National Review
March 25, 2004

L’Année de la Chine
By John J. Tkacik Jr.

Will Europe arm Red China?

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/tkacik200403250900.asp

A bitter dispute over election results is bad enough. But Taiwan's
troubles — and ours — may be just beginning.

The reason: Our European allies might well approve plans to sell China
advanced weaponry at the March 25-26 European Union summit that begins
today.

The repercussions would be disastrous. Not only could China use new weapons
from Europe against Taiwan, but Chinese generals have said they're prepared
to confront U.S. forces in the Pacific if America tries to help Taiwan.

Why would NATO allies put the United States in this position? Money is one
reason. But European commentators suspect that France and China want to
build a multipolar alliance to counter American "hegemony."

This rings true, if only because the justifications Europeans proffer for
renewed arms sales are patently fraudulent. Like the United States, the EU
embargoed all arms sales to China after the bloody suppression of
pro-democracy demonstrations in Tiananmen Square in 1989. Since then,
Beijing has steadily introduced market reforms for China's economy, but its
political, religious, and labor suppression has, if anything, worsened.

Senior Chinese diplomats recently held talks with EU officials to persuade
them to lift the ban. They hint that if the EU lifts the sanctions, China
will steer its big-ticket civilian purchases, including aircraft, power
stations, and mass transit, away from American vendors to EU firms.

Last December, German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder announced in Beijing that
Germany was amenable to ending the embargo. European Trade Commissioner
Pascal Lamy added his support to Schroeder's proposal.

Not to be outdone, French President Jacques Chirac invited Chinese President
Hu Jintao to Paris. Ignoring the complaints of French human-rights groups,
Chirac designated 2004 the "Year of China" and threw one of the most
extravagant receptions France has ever given a foreign leader. One
highlight: the Eiffel Tower bathed in red floodlights, a first ever for the
Parisian landmark.

Perhaps the red lights blinded Chirac to China's massive missile threat to
Taiwan — more than 500 short-range ballistic missiles now aimed at the
island, with 75 new missiles deployed each year. He vehemently condemned
Taiwan's plans to hold a referendum to protest the missiles. As for the
embargo, it "no longer makes any sense," Chirac announced.

France now calls China "a special partner...playing a key and responsible
role in the international system" and declares that the EU "should encourage
it in this direction to contribute to international stability and security,
especially in Asia." This despite China's growing missile threat to Taiwan,
its support of North Korea's right to have nuclear weapons as a "legitimate
security concern" against a U.S. threat, and Beijing's increasingly
vitriolic criticisms of Hong Kong's hugely popular democratic party.

France's sudden announcement of joint naval exercises with China the week
before Taiwan's election caught U.S. officials by surprise. As the Asian
Wall Street Journal pointed out last week, "politically, France has for
years now coveted an alliance with China to further Paris's goal of a
'multipolar world,' which is really a euphemism for constraining U.S.
power."

Meanwhile, the U.S. State Department seems unsure how to approach EU allies.
According to Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, the United States
has "talked with Europeans about the wisdom of lifting the embargo because
of our concerns about human rights." A review of the State Department's
annual human-rights reports from 1990 to 2003 shows that China either has
made no progress from year to year or has grown worse.

But the defense ramifications loom even larger. A senior Pentagon official
recently warned Congress that "China's ability to acquire, integrate and
thereby multiply its force posture has really increased dramatically." Most
worrisome, he said, is the fact that "there are scenarios where we could
actually be involved in [the defense of Taiwan], so any contribution to the
other side of the equation complicates our position and that is why we're
opposed."

China's $65 billion defense budget is the second largest in the world after
the United States, and China is aggressively modernizing its military. It
seeks the most modern military technology available. China still threatens
Taiwan with war, and the United States has strategic, moral, and legal
obligations to help democratic Taiwan defend itself.

An EU decision to proceed with arms sales to the world's most powerful
dictatorship could strain the Atlantic alliance to the breaking point. If
commercial advantage in China's market is all the Europeans want, perhaps
they can be talked out of this. But if they're determined to enlist China in
an alignment to hem in American "hegemony," then the Atlantic alliance may
be on its deathbed.

— John J. Tkacik Jr. is a research fellow in the Asian Studies Center of the
Heritage Foundation.
 
What ever happened to the free world? I guess China is not a threat to France, the surrender monkeys thaty they are. I guess NATO was a fair weather alliance when the Red Menace was threatening Europe. Apparently, it is no longer convenient to be pro-USA.

If thses deals go through, then we must pull the MFN and possibly embargo Red China. Too bad for all the Wal-Mart shoppers.

China is the enemy of the US and there will be blood spilled in the future. The EU is aligning themselves with China economically and militarily. We must endeavor to watch our back when the time comes.

To all of you leftist extremists, go ahead and applaud. The euro-weanies have pulled another fast one on Shrub. Too bad that the EU is militarily supporting a country with the most disgusting human rights records on the planet. But then the left has never met a dictator that it did not adore.
 
China is the enemy of the US and there will be blood spilled in the future.
Please tell that to Pres. Bush.

From http://www.itds.treas.gov/mfn.html
There currently are a few countries which must obtain an annual presidential waiver or extension of a waiver to continue their NTR status. China is the most important country in this group which must obtain an annual waiver to maintain NTR. The waiver for China has been in effect since 1980. Every year, since 1989, legislation has been introduced in Congress to disapprove the President's waiver. The legislation has sought to tie China's NTR renewal to meeting certain human rights conditions that go beyond freedom of emigration. Through 1998, attempts to deny China NTR have failed. NTR is likely to be approved for China in 1999 as well.

NTR=Normal Trade Relations aka Most Favored Nation Status
 
What a strange turn of events it would be if the next cold war was with Europe and China against us and elements of the former East Block (who seem to be making for steadfast allies of late).
 
Well, considering how things went during the last two years it's safe to say that Social Democrats and Greens will most likely lose big time in the next German elections.

We'll have a conservative government (possibly a coalition with the small "liberal" FDP) by 2006.

The conservative CDU (Christian Democratic Union) as well as the FDP (Free German Party) and even the Green Party have all spoken out vehemently against Schröder's announcement.

Don't blame me, I don't support this guy anymore than you support, um... John Kerry, for example. :)


Regards,

Trooper
 
China, like France, suffers from delusions of grandure. China has the potential to be a world player but is socially,economically, and militarily backwards. France is just backwards. Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.
 
If there is a buck..sorry Euro to be made, Europe will be there.

Just look at Iraq.

What will Bush do? Maybe Fox will give him some ideas. Bush seems to appreciate such advice.

China, like France, suffers from delusions of grandure.

One difference, France is not and will not be a world power. China is an emerging super-power, which is fueled by our desire to buy consumer goods at a great price and the Chinese willingness to work hard. We have one great advantage. The Chinese are not that inventive. The downside is that Hong Kong is part of China and if China is to be a true super-power, the inventiveness of the people of Hong Kong just might drive such a transformation and your next purchase at Walmart will provide the fuel.
 
Follow the money.

Unfortunately, that doesn't apply just to Europe, does it?

But look at the bright side, on some level this creates international stalemate. Parity through mutual fear.
 
Chinese generals have said they're prepared to confront U.S. forces in the Pacific if America tries to help Taiwan
That would be a good start to losing the Red Army's Navy. Having technology and knowing how to employ it are two different animals. IMO we will eventually be forced to go head-to-head with the Chinese -- maybe over Taiwan, maybe over oil. I would hope that they continue taking tactics lessons from the French.

I think it's time we considered a new defense agreement with the Vietnamese.
 
We have one great advantage. The Chinese are not that inventive

It was common knowledge, prior to Pearl Harbor, the the US Navy had nothing to fear from the Japanese carrier pilots, who were known to all have bad eyesight, and Pearl Harbor was too shallow for airborne torpedo attack anyway.

The Japanese were also accused of being too non-inventive and imitative, right up to the point where they were found to have modified their torpedos with innovative wooden fins to enable them to operate in the shallow waters at Pearl.

You are vastly underestimating our Communist Chinese enemy.
 
Again, I wouldn't call China communist anymore. Sure, it is an oppressive one-party dictatorship but nowadays it's communist in name only.

As soon as a state allows private enterprises and recognizes their value you can't really apply the communist label to it.

In a communist society all means of production are by definition state-owned. Don't take me wrong but I see a tendency in American conservatives to label anything communist that is 1.) somewhere to the left of them on the political scale, or 2.) involves gov't regulations, 3.) involves welfare, or 4.) involves gun control :)

While there are lots of things to dislike among the above mentioned issues, it doesn't mean they're indicators of "communism".

There ain't many communist countries left anymore, and China sure isn't one of them...


Regards,

Trooper
 
http://www2.ifc.org/publications/china_private_ent.pdf

Apparently private enterprises accounted for more than 30% of China's GDP in 1998. The private sector was officially recognized by an amendment to the constitution one year later.

In 2000 almost two-third of the economic activity was in the private sector.

Call it what you want but it sure as hell isn't communism. Communism is a certain economical and political system in which all means of productions are collectively owned (=run by party bureaucrats :) ). It is NOT just made up by having a red flag and a party that calls itself "communist".



Regards,

Trooper
 
Again, I wouldn't call China communist anymore. Sure, it is an oppressive one-party dictatorship but nowadays it's communist in name only.

They describe themselves as communist as that is usefull as a label to distinguish thier PRC from the Chinese in Taiwan, and that's the only reason I would use the term. Sino-Fascist would be more accurate.

Their adoption of a semi-free market economy makes them even more dangerous. From what I read the Chinese overseas intelligence service operating in the US outshines even the KGB at it's peak. They have far more money to toss around Washington and elsewhere. John Kerry's accepting illegal contributions from them is a good example.




-editid for spelling-CHL2236
 
Last edited:
Many good points.

In fact, the government of that large land area may not have varied that much for thousands of years. The people are historically use to a very strong central figure. In the distant past there were many such figures, each controlling a part of today's China. The present state is a socialistic-totalitarian state. Based upon what has happened in Europe and present tendencies in the U.S., socialism may have actually won the day.

China is going to be a super-power and China wants to be the big dog in Asia. It seems to me that they will be the hegemonic power in Asia and it is just a matter of whether they prefer to trade, or fight. Given past history, I would be more concerned regarding these events if I were Japanese. It is just a matter of time, but it is unclear which path China will take.
 
I think China is gearing up to take our jobs also they are taking jobs from asia by paying lower wages. Wal-Mart buys a lot their of products from china. They may be getting smart and spenting their money on building factorys not weapons.
 
They have always had a long view of where they want to go. One thing that has not changed is their goal of having Taiwan return to Beijing's control. Although Beijing would prefer for Taiwan to return voluntarily and become another province like Hong Kong, they may eventually choose to take Taiwan by force. Besides the people and armed forces of Taiwan, there is only one military in their way and it isn't the French.

Although their military budget isn't as high as that of the US, the Red Army doesn't pay its soldiers and conscripts as much and they don't pay AFL-CIO wages when they build tanks and ships. Their money goes a long way. As far as Wal-Mart shoppers are concerned, think of them as a source of funding for the government of China.

They very much want to be the power in Asia and they want our influence in their back yard eliminated. The Japanese and South Koreans should be concerned.
 
Arm the Vietnamese! They are no great lovers of the Chinese. The last 1000 years of history prove that! A large part of the Vietnamese armed forces face the Chinese border!

Oh! They also don't particularly like the French! Hmmm! I wonder why?
 
Note, the French President Chirac is a conservative/right-winger. French corporate interests don't necessarily coincide with U.S. corporate interests.

As for China. Imho, the Chinese government is about as fascist as you can get. Their government is a sleeping dragon waiting for the U.S. to weaken ourselves on unwinnable wars while they grow stronger off of us (see: U.S. trade deficit) during their period of relative peace.
 
So long as free trade between China and the US continues, it is highly unlikely that they would try to attack the USA.

China attacking the US would be like killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
 
As for China. Imho, the Chinese government is about as fascist as you can get. Their government is a sleeping dragon waiting for the U.S. to weaken ourselves on unwinnable wars while they grow stronger off of us (see: U.S. trade deficit) during their period of relative peace.

Which "unwinnable wars" would you be thinking of. Perhaps the ones that provide the U.S. military with invaluable experience and allow us to move our military beyond fighting WWII. I sure hope that the present war is "winnable", because should it not be, I don't know that I relish the idea of putting knees to rug and kissing the carpet. Of course, until we eliminate all human life on the planet, it seems that one war simply ends, so that we can get on with the next. "We" being humanity.

Justin certainly provides the hope.

I often wonder if mankind has finally progressed technologically beyond our level of consciousness. The technology to do great harm has finally come within the grasp of many. How do we deal with another hundred years of tyrants with the means to do mass destruction. The will has always been there. We may be worried about the Chinese coming in the front door while the real threat enters from behind. This may be why the military is moving to small, fast and intelligent. Small intel groups mix with potential adversaries and then try to neutralize threat through non-violent means.. failing, they call in fast reaction forces.
 
And where would China get the money?

Any chinese arming with European weapons would be paid for, at least in part with US dollars.

China is one of the top 2 or 3 holders of the US Debt, if not the largest.

China also benefits hugely with trade with the US.

the US continues to provide trade agreements and trade status to China under the guise of the long-failed argument that capitalism will lead to social and political freedoms. The fact is, just as with the war in Iraq, our motives are economic, not social and political. Even more so, these economic motives benefit only a portion of the US population
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top