Will old, moist shells pattern poorly? *VERY IMPORTANT*

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fnforme

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Hey everyone. I don't really have much experience at all with shotguns other than what I read. But I need some help for a very good cause.

I am helping someone who was involved in a self defense situation involving a shotgun. I can't give any details now because it hasn't gone to trial yet, but I will spill the beans when it's all over since we can all learn some very valuable lessons from this case. Anyways, the defendant in question fired a shot out of a shotgun with an 18" barrel and pistol grip into the side of a car door and the resulting pattern covered most of the diameter of the lower car door on a compact car. The load was Federal #4 buckshot. The ammo was old and stored unsealed in a very warm, humid environment for years. Is it possible to obtain a pattern like I described from a distance of only 10 feet? I've got conflicting reports from ballistics labs about this. I've heard numbers ranging from 35 feet to 8 feet, with the more believeable sources saying 8 to 10 feet.

Does the age and moisture effect the pattern that much? I know shotgun shells are especially susceptable to moisture and that's why the military used brass shells for years in shotguns, so I'm wondering just how big of an impact this could have.

I really, really appreciate any input :) . You'll be happy you helped when you find out what happened ;)

If anyone has pictures from 10 feet or less with #4 federal buckshot please post them here or e-mail them to me at [email protected].
 
yeah well if no one posts let me know, It would really break my heart to go out and shoot my shotgun with the #4 buck thats in it...
 
Moisture will effect the shell itself only if it's made of paper, not plastic or brass. The big problem of high temperature and moisture is on the primer and powder. I would not like to depend on that ammo. The lead pellets might oxidize some but I would think that might make the pellets stick together giving a tighter pattern. Iron shot can rust together that's why federal ,for example copper plates steel buckshot...That sounds like a very open pattern for 10' but how was it made , did it have a plastic cup or was it so old that it had cardboard wads. Is there any ammo left that coul be test fired and also taken apart ?
 
Frankly, I'd be very, very surprised if that was true or accurate. I shot a fair amount of close targets with shotguns for a TFL post. The old value of 1 inch per yard in terms of pattern held true with several different shotguns and loads.

The only possible explanation I can think of would be a skipped shot charge off the pavement. Pattern should be very low and very oval.

How high was the pattern on the car door?

If this is not the case (skipped round), your subject is simply not telling an accurate version of what happened. :(
 
What was the specific load exactly? Was it 2 ¾†or was it 3� If it was 2 ¾ inch was it the regular 27 pellets or was it the Magnum 34 pellets? Also can you be more specific as to the size of the pattern? I did extensive testing of buckshot patterning and found that Federal #4 buck had by far the widest spread. I photographed my results and posted at the below link. The problem is that I used a shotgun with a 20†barrel with a modified choke so my patterns will be different than yours. You will need to borrow a shotgun with an 18 inch barrel and try it out. I think what you are saying is very possible with Federal #4 buck.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83909
 
Patterns with a chokeless 18" barrel here are more like 4-6" at 10 feet, though that's with 00 and bird shot, no #4 buck.

IMO,something's wrong with your scenario.....
 
The size of the pattern you mention would not seem to fit the distance of 10 ft no matter what the load. ( or the ammo's age , etc. )

I would be very surprised if any shotgun , with an 18" barrel, no matter what the choke and or load was, would pattern near that large of a size.
 
Yes, you need to be more specific on the diameter of the spread. Also was the shot fired directly at a tangent angle into the door (straight on) or was the shot fired at a side angle into the door?
 
Thanks for all the replies. I'll take a look tomorrow at the photos and check into the exact ammo load and get back to ya'll. It seems like the group might be a little smaller than I originally thought, maybe closer to 15" or less. Hopefully I'll gather all the info I need tomorrow.

lbmii, thanks for the picture in the other thread. I saved that to compare tomorrow from the photos in this shooting. The group that I'm dealing with seems pretty similar in size to what you're showing, maybe an extra 2". But the barrel was shorter.
 
I just don't see a 15 inch pattern at 10 feet unless it hit the door at an oblique angle. Post the photos because there are a number of people here that will be able to give you a pretty close estimate of the range.
 
With bird shot they have spreader shot but I've never heard of that with buckshot. Even then it's a big pattern fo 10'.
 
Generally, I think you'd be looking at the OPPOSITE effect (if, in fact, they managed to fire at all). With a modern, well-sealed plastic-cased hull (non-steel shot), it shouldn't make much of a difference, but I have seen shells loaded with steel shot that essentially turned into pre-fragmented slugs after the shot had gotten wet and rusted together. With plastic wads, you probably wouldn't see any effect at all. Without spreader wads or a rifled barrel, I doubt you culd GET a pattern that big at only 10 feet, at least without the shot charge hitting an intervening object. An interesting question, though...
 
fn,

Sounds to me as if the critical bit of information in your description of the incident was the fact that the shotgun in question was fitted with a pistol grip. Most shotguns with PG-only stocks index quite low, especially when handled by an inexperienced shooter or a shooter under pressure. It sounds to me as if Al Thompson nailed it- a load that went low and 'skipped' into the door. Patterns fired at a 90 degree angle of incidence or thereabouts, at that range, _should_ measure just a few inches in diameter, not over a foot. If the angle of incidence was shallower, then the pattern would spread into a shallow oval along its axis of approach- the shallower the angle, the longer the pattern. But it should still be only a few inches high. If the load was in fact 'skipped,' it should produce a pattern that is a ragged shallow oval as well- how ragged and how large would depend what sort of surface it skipped from and the distances involved. There should also be evidence of smaller secondary missiles as well, dings from fragments of pellets etc.

If the round would fire at all, IMHO it is unlikely moisture/humidity/heat had much of a damaging effect on it. I have seen wet ammo (even in plastic hulls) produce 'bloopers', some of which wouldn't even get the wad out of the bore. And I have seen bulged/burst barrels as a result, when shooters tried to fire a subsequent round. Sounds as if this round functioned reasonably well.

Pictures would definitely help.....

lpl/nc
 
Any particular reason why your "friend's" attorney has'nt examined the shotgun as part of discovery and actually had it patterned?

:scrutiny:
 
**Update

I reviewed everything today. Posting pictures is out of the question, sorry.

The good news is that I grossly overestimated the group size. It is actually 10 inches in total diameter. The shots did not ricochet off the ground but rather impacted at an acute angle or possibly perpendicular.

The gun was patterned, but there have been some issues with that.

So what distance would you estimate a 10" group of Federal #4 Buckshot was fired from? This was from an 18" barrel with improved choke.

Thanks for all the info and comments, I am very appreciative :)
 
fn,

Shotgun patterning is more akin to magic than science, and every barrel is pretty much a law unto itself as far as what it will do with patterns is concerned.

Then you add the variables of shot size, brand, load, changes from lot to lot, and the sky might well be the limit.

I would be hard put to offer anything like a reliable estimate, I'm afraid. My experience, while some might call it relatively extensive, is with larger buckshot- 00 and 000. I have mostly used tighter chokes as well. I do prefer 18" or 20" barrels, but many of them have been modified with extended forcing cones, highly polished bores and screw-in choke tubes to improve their patterning ability. Given sufficient barrel length to completely burn the powder charge (and 18" is plenty), barrel length is simply not that big a consideration in patterning. Choke is much more of an influence than barrel length, and if the barrel in question has an improved cylinder choke, it would be more likely to throw tighter patterns rather than the more open ones a straight cylinder bore would produce.

If this particular gun's pattern with a given load is the issue, IMHO the only reliable way to determine the range in question is to pattern the gun with that same load (same manufacturer, type, shot size, same lot number) at known distances until a similar sized pattern is produced. I find it difficult to believe that any standard production buckshot load fired from a smoothbore barrel would produce a 10" pattern at ten feet- at that range, the pattern would be more like a single ragged hole not much more than bore diameter. As a SWAG I'd say your're looking at twice that distance minimum, and likely further.

There are various 'tricks of the trade' to produce what are called "spreader loads", and Federal once produced a home defense load with a plastic post in the middle of the shot charge to make it spread faster. IIRC they were called "Personal Protection" ammo and were loaded with #2 shot. I don't know of anything similar ever loaded with #4 buckshot though.

It is true that a shotgun with a rifled barrel will produce much more open patterns at shorter ranges, but these usually take on a distinctive donut shape, with a noticable thin spot or hole in the middle of the pattern. It is easy to tell if a shotgun has a rifled bore just by inspecting it- the telltale spiral lands and grooves in the bore will be obvious.

Can't think of anything else to offer at this point, HTH,

lpl/nc
 
Well, I couldn't find an 18" shotgun with an IC choke, but here's the next best thing; a Maverick 88, 18" cylinder bore, patterned at 20 feet and 25 feet with Federal #4 (Magnum; 34 pellet) buckshot. The 25' pattern was almost exactly 10" edge to edge, and that would shrink slightly with an IC choke, so I think you'd be looking at a maximum of 30 feet. Of course, that all goes out the window when you change guns or loads, so, as always, "YMMV".
 
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