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I was going to purchase a 66 winchester in 44-40, and was wondering will 44 russian shoot in it with a custom elevator? I know 44 special would work, but what about 44-40?
winchester 1866 44-40 and 44 russian?
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Tommygunn
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Where did you learn that a .44-40 rifle would take .44 special or .44 Russian?
IIRC the .44-40 has a slightly different bullet diameter than .44 special.
IIRC you can use .44 Russian in a .44 special gun.
I am also not sure about the desirability of trying to feed .44 special through a .44-40 toggle-link action.
I have a Browning B-92 in .44 magnum and a Uberti 1873 in .44-40. Because of the physical similarity in size between the two cartridges they use I once, out of curiosity, tried to get a .44-40 into the .44 magnum's chamber, and it did not fit. Neither would the .44 magnum round fit into the 1873's .44-40 chamber. I have never tried to place a .44 special into the .44-40 chamber.
But, I would NEVER try to fire a .44SP in the .44-40 chamber even if it did fit.
With regards to the "special elevator" I'm not sure what you mean by that. Trying to make a rifle with a receiver sized for .44-40 cartridges cycle significantly shorter rounds would be a real challenge as the 1873 (and the 1866) design would allow the rounds in the magazine tube to protrude into the receiver and they would catch on the edge of the tube as the lifter rose.
A slight round, or chamfer, in the front of the lifter (in the floor of the section of the carrier the round is carried in) can accomodate rounds with a slightly less than optimum overall length .... but this only works so much, at some point the leverage would not work out and you'd still acquire the jam.
I really believe you ought to keep with rounds the gun you have (or plan to acqiuire) is designed for; you're asking for trouble. IMHO, of course.
IIRC the .44-40 has a slightly different bullet diameter than .44 special.
IIRC you can use .44 Russian in a .44 special gun.
I am also not sure about the desirability of trying to feed .44 special through a .44-40 toggle-link action.
I have a Browning B-92 in .44 magnum and a Uberti 1873 in .44-40. Because of the physical similarity in size between the two cartridges they use I once, out of curiosity, tried to get a .44-40 into the .44 magnum's chamber, and it did not fit. Neither would the .44 magnum round fit into the 1873's .44-40 chamber. I have never tried to place a .44 special into the .44-40 chamber.
But, I would NEVER try to fire a .44SP in the .44-40 chamber even if it did fit.
With regards to the "special elevator" I'm not sure what you mean by that. Trying to make a rifle with a receiver sized for .44-40 cartridges cycle significantly shorter rounds would be a real challenge as the 1873 (and the 1866) design would allow the rounds in the magazine tube to protrude into the receiver and they would catch on the edge of the tube as the lifter rose.
A slight round, or chamfer, in the front of the lifter (in the floor of the section of the carrier the round is carried in) can accomodate rounds with a slightly less than optimum overall length .... but this only works so much, at some point the leverage would not work out and you'd still acquire the jam.
I really believe you ought to keep with rounds the gun you have (or plan to acqiuire) is designed for; you're asking for trouble. IMHO, of course.
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I was just wondering, and theres a special "cowboy" lifter for the '66 win and the '60 henry, that will allow it too shoot 44 russian as the if loaded at home can replicate the 44 henry.
Tommygunn
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Huh.
Well you learn something every day, I guess.
Perhaps the .44 Russian is so short that it works that way. I'm still not sure I really like the idea. And I am not sure what the purpose is. Around here I see .44-40 more often than 44 Russian....in fact I don't believe I've ever seen .44 Russian.
Do you reload .44 Russian? Do you use blackpowder? That'd be a lot of fun.
I have .44-40 in blackpowder loads but that and some BP loads in .38 Colt for my 1851 Richards Mason Conversion is it.
The 44 WCF is a tapered case, much more so than the 44 Special or 44 Russian. Firing either of the other cartridges in the 44 WCF chamber will cause the cases to swell. Your reloading dies may not be able to resize the fired cases properly. Even if they do, the life of the case will be greatly shortened by overworking the brass.
Kevin
Kevin
GooseGestapo
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Though the .44/40 aka .44wcf, uses a nominal .427" jacketed and .428" lead bullet, the .44Russian and .44spl also .44mag use .429" jacketed and .430-.431" lead bullets.
The biggest reason you'll not be able to use .44wcf in a .44Russian is case length and case head diameter.
The .44Russian has a .515" rim diameter and .44/40 a .525" diameter and case body of .568" that will prevent it from chambering in the .44Russian chamber.
Firing a .44Russian in a .44wcf will ruin the case (probably) splitting it or definitely buldging it. Probably a lot of blow back from lack of chamber seal too, as Russian brass is a bit thicker and more robust than the .44wcf.
I have problems with factory "cowboy" level .45colt maintaining a chamber seal on a 24"bbl Winchester Mod-94 in .45colt. Thicker brass such as Starline takes a load higher than SAAMI to maintain case obturation (expasion to seal) to keep from getting bullet lube and combustion gasses back into the action and my face...
I can imagine a lot of problems with .44Russian in .44wcf. Just stick with the .44wcf...imo.
The biggest reason you'll not be able to use .44wcf in a .44Russian is case length and case head diameter.
The .44Russian has a .515" rim diameter and .44/40 a .525" diameter and case body of .568" that will prevent it from chambering in the .44Russian chamber.
Firing a .44Russian in a .44wcf will ruin the case (probably) splitting it or definitely buldging it. Probably a lot of blow back from lack of chamber seal too, as Russian brass is a bit thicker and more robust than the .44wcf.
I have problems with factory "cowboy" level .45colt maintaining a chamber seal on a 24"bbl Winchester Mod-94 in .45colt. Thicker brass such as Starline takes a load higher than SAAMI to maintain case obturation (expasion to seal) to keep from getting bullet lube and combustion gasses back into the action and my face...
I can imagine a lot of problems with .44Russian in .44wcf. Just stick with the .44wcf...imo.
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Driftwood Johnson
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Howdy
You cannot fire 44 Special OR 44 Russian in a 44-40 chamber. The 44-40 case is over .010 wider in diameter at the case head than the 44 Special. Besides, all the other dimensions are all wrong too. I dunno who told you that you could fire 44 Sp in a 44-40 chamber, but they are wrong. I load a lot of 44-40, trust me on this.
44-40
44 Special
The rounds in this photo are, left to right, 44-40, 44 Special, 44 Russian, 44 S&W American, 44 Henry Rimfire, 45 Schofield, and 45 Colt.
If you try to chamber a 44 Special round in a 44-40 chamber, it will be unsupported at the rear, and the case will bulge badly if in fact it does not split.
The special lifter you are talking about is for a rifle chambered for 44 Special, not 44-40. Yes, you can chamber and fire 44 Russian in any firearm chambered for 44 Special. But the round is much shorter, and you will need a specially modified carrier that accounts for the shorter round.
I also load and shoot a lot of 44 Russian in antique S&W revolvers.
You cannot fire 44 Special OR 44 Russian in a 44-40 chamber. The 44-40 case is over .010 wider in diameter at the case head than the 44 Special. Besides, all the other dimensions are all wrong too. I dunno who told you that you could fire 44 Sp in a 44-40 chamber, but they are wrong. I load a lot of 44-40, trust me on this.
44-40
44 Special
The rounds in this photo are, left to right, 44-40, 44 Special, 44 Russian, 44 S&W American, 44 Henry Rimfire, 45 Schofield, and 45 Colt.
If you try to chamber a 44 Special round in a 44-40 chamber, it will be unsupported at the rear, and the case will bulge badly if in fact it does not split.
The special lifter you are talking about is for a rifle chambered for 44 Special, not 44-40. Yes, you can chamber and fire 44 Russian in any firearm chambered for 44 Special. But the round is much shorter, and you will need a specially modified carrier that accounts for the shorter round.
I also load and shoot a lot of 44 Russian in antique S&W revolvers.
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I live in South Dakota and close to Rapid City, so I can go to some local gunshops and they have the Black Hills Cowboy Action rounds. So they have .44 Russian and the other calibers. Or go to Black Hills Ammo and pick it from them, might be cheaper that way.
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There is a custom lifter for Uberti '66 win and '60 Henrys that are chambered in 44Sp or chambered in 45LC, with the 45LC lifter you can load 45acp or 45 cowboy brass, so you can get the "real" tube magazine capacityHowdy
You cannot fire 44 Special OR 44 Russian in a 44-40 chamber. The 44-40 case is over .010 wider in diameter at the case head than the 44 Special. Besides, all the other dimensions are all wrong too. I dunno who told you that you could fire 44 Sp in a 44-40 chamber, but they are wrong. I load a lot of 44-40, trust me on this.
44-40
44 Special
The rounds in this photo are, left to right, 44-40, 44 Special, 44 Russian, 44 S&W American, 44 Henry Rimfire, 45 Schofield, and 45 Colt.
If you try to chamber a 44 Special round in a 44-40 chamber, it will be unsupported at the rear, and the case will bulge badly if in fact it does not split.
The special lifter you are talking about is for a rifle chambered for 44 Special, not 44-40. Yes, you can chamber and fire 44 Russian in any firearm chambered for 44 Special. But the round is much shorter, and you will need a specially modified carrier that accounts for the shorter round.
I also load and shoot a lot of 44 Russian in antique S&W revolvers.
Driftwood Johnson
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No, you cannot shoot 45 ACP in the 45 Colt rifle with the custom lifter. Only 45 Cowboy Special. 45 ACP has no rim for the cartridge to headspace on. 45 Cowboy Special has the same rim configuration as 45 Colt, so with Happy Trail's custom carrier you can shoot 45 Cowboy Special in a 45 Colt 66/73/Henry.
http://www.thesmithshop.com/cbs45.html
But good luck finding any 45 Cowboy Special brass, the fellow who was selling it quit the business, he sold it to somebody else, and now nobody knows when they are going to be selling it. And nobody loads 45 Cowboy Special brass commercially.
I am not aware of a custom carrier for 44 Special to convert it to 44 Russian. And 44 Special lever guns are as rare as hen's teeth, good luck finding one.
Frankly, I don't understand this whole business about wanting to shoot shorter rounds in a toggle link rifle to simulate the experience of shooting the shorter 44 Henry round. Take a look at the 44 Henry round in my photo. It was a pipsqueak round. It only held about 26 or 28 grains of Black Powder under a 200 grain bullet. That's the whole reason the 44-40 was developed for the 1873 Winchester in the first place, because the 44 Henry round was so weak. And if you don't handload these rounds, they are very expensive to buy commercially.
Yes, 44 Russian is approximately the same length and powder capacity as 44 Henry Rimfire. Here is a photo of the components that go into my Black Powder 44 Russian rounds. I shoot them in antique S&W Top Break revolvers.
All my lever guns are chambered for 44-40 (except for a 38-40 antique Winchester 1873) I can stuff 13 rounds into the magazines of any of them. How many more rounds do you need in the magazine?
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No, you cannot shoot 45 ACP in the 45 Colt rifle with the custom lifter. Only 45 Cowboy Special. 45 ACP has no rim for the cartridge to headspace on. 45 Cowboy Special has the same rim configuration as 45 Colt, so with Happy Trail's custom carrier you can shoot 45 Cowboy Special in a 45 Colt 66/73/Henry.
http://www.thesmithshop.com/cbs45.html
But good luck finding any 45 Cowboy Special brass, the fellow who was selling it quit the business, he sold it to somebody else, and now nobody knows when they are going to be selling it. And nobody loads 45 Cowboy Special brass commercially.
I am not aware of a custom carrier for 44 Special to convert it to 44 Russian. And 44 Special lever guns are as rare as hen's teeth, good luck finding one.
Frankly, I don't understand this whole business about wanting to shoot shorter rounds in a toggle link rifle to simulate the experience of shooting the shorter 44 Henry round. Take a look at the 44 Henry round in my photo. It was a pipsqueak round. It only held about 26 or 28 grains of Black Powder under a 200 grain bullet. That's the whole reason the 44-40 was developed for the 1873 Winchester in the first place, because the 44 Henry round was so weak. And if you don't handload these rounds, they are very expensive to buy commercially.
Yes, 44 Russian is approximately the same length and powder capacity as 44 Henry Rimfire. Here is a photo of the components that go into my Black Powder 44 Russian rounds. I shoot them in antique S&W Top Break revolvers.
All my lever guns are chambered for 44-40 (except for a 38-40 antique Winchester 1873) I can stuff 13 rounds into the magazines of any of them. How many more rounds do you need in the magazine?
Well let me explain it to you then.
The .44 Russian is a short, thick, straight walled case as opposed to the thin walled semi bottleneck .44/40.
Shorter and thicker means greater tensile strength in the case wall proper and reduction in case stretch with repeated firings.
Translation: MUCH longer lasting case life.
.44 Russian loaded properly produces less pressure that a .44/40 though the .44/40 can be loaded to better ballistic advantage due to case capacity but so what.
Nobody needs to Magnumize a cartridge used mainly in toggle action rifles and single action pistols for use in recreation competitive shooting sports.
Even the folks using the stronger Browning designed 1892 lever actions don't ramp the loads up for cowboy shooting, they don't need to.
So what does the .44 Russian offer then?
Longer case life AND greater magazine capacity without extending the barrel/Magazine tube length, PLUS, when using a short throw lever kit and a properly dimensioned cartridge lifter, the .44 Russian can offer increased speed of operation meaning faster follow up shots and a faster clock time.
Win, Win, Win.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
I can't argue with you over case life, because I only load these rounds with Black Powder. BP does not develop enough pressure to damage the brass and I get plenty of case life out of my 44-40 brass. However I do fill the cases with powder, they are the 1873 'magnum' version. Wouldn't have it any other way.
I still can't see why you need all those rounds in the magazine, I haven't been to a match where any thing more than ten rifle rounds were needed, ever since 20" short rifles started becoming popular about 10 years ago. We used to load up to 12, but not for years now.
Yeah, short strokes are great, but do you really think shortening the case length is going to cut your time down? You still have to work the lever all the way, and you still have to raise and lower the carrier all the way.
But to each his own. I hope you find a toggle link rifle that will chamber the 44 Russian round.
I can't argue with you over case life, because I only load these rounds with Black Powder. BP does not develop enough pressure to damage the brass and I get plenty of case life out of my 44-40 brass. However I do fill the cases with powder, they are the 1873 'magnum' version. Wouldn't have it any other way.
I still can't see why you need all those rounds in the magazine, I haven't been to a match where any thing more than ten rifle rounds were needed, ever since 20" short rifles started becoming popular about 10 years ago. We used to load up to 12, but not for years now.
Yeah, short strokes are great, but do you really think shortening the case length is going to cut your time down? You still have to work the lever all the way, and you still have to raise and lower the carrier all the way.
But to each his own. I hope you find a toggle link rifle that will chamber the 44 Russian round.
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well, im not in CAS or SASS. i love old western guns, i live in south dakota. and I probably won't be in CAS or SASS, I just want it to shoot around. I know that getting the .38sp would be the more cost effective round, but I want something that's powerful and close to the original round as possible. Seeing it is the 44 russian, and Black Hills ammo isn't too far from where I am. I can possibly pick ammo up from the big gun store in Rapid or go the Black Hills Ammo directly and pick it up from them. either it be 44sp or 44 russian
Jim Watson
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If you just must, Uberti made some .44 Special 1866 and 1873 rifles and carbines.
VTI lists replacement barrels. $235-$285 plus some gunsmithing and you are in business. A little more gunsmithing and you are down to .44 Russian.
All it takes is money and finding somebody to do the work.
VTI lists replacement barrels. $235-$285 plus some gunsmithing and you are in business. A little more gunsmithing and you are down to .44 Russian.
All it takes is money and finding somebody to do the work.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Ammo availability is one thing. But I don't think you have been paying attention to what I have been saying.
The Uberti 1866 is available chambered for 45 Colt, 44-40, and 38 Special.
http://www.uberti.com/1866-yellowboy-rifle
It is very difficult to find one chambered for 44 Special.
You cannot shoot either 44 Special or 44 Russian in one chambered for 44-40, 45 Colt, or 38 Special.
The only way to fire 44 Russian in a '66 would be to find one chambered for 44 Special, and have the carrier modified to feed 44 Russian ammo. You would have to find a gunsmith who could customize the carrier for you.
Why not just buy a stock one in 44-40? 44-40 is a terrific cartridge.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Native Shooter, you're not listening.
YOU CAN'T SHOOT .44RUSSIAN OR .44SPL IN A .44-40!!!!!
Can't be any more clear. No custom lifter is going to solve all the problems in doing so.
YOU CAN'T SHOOT .44RUSSIAN OR .44SPL IN A .44-40!!!!!
Can't be any more clear. No custom lifter is going to solve all the problems in doing so.
Armybrat
Member
And I wouldn't shoot .44 Russian, .44 Special, or .44-40 in my '66 Winchester either..... 
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On Cimarron, theres a 66 yellowboy chambered in 44 special. I understood you perfectly CraigC http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/re...-ring-44-special-19-in-rnd-c-a-218-a-s-1.html
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Here's a 44 special yellowboy from cimarron http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/re...-ring-44-special-19-in-rnd-c-a-218-a-s-1.htmlAnd I wouldn't shoot .44 Russian, .44 Special, or .44-40 in my '66 Winchester either.....
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Driftwood Johnson
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That is an unusual chambering for the 1866. Let us know if your dealer can actually get one.
Then you will need a custom carrier for 44 Russian. If you get a carrier that will allow you to shoot 44 Russian, you will no longer be able to shoot 44 Special in it.
Then you will need a custom carrier for 44 Russian. If you get a carrier that will allow you to shoot 44 Russian, you will no longer be able to shoot 44 Special in it.
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The gun store that in the city has some sort of deal with cimarron and will have the gun or you can order it from them. also with the custom lifter, i think you can replace it with out it having a lot of problem. Shoot 44sp when i want to, switch them out for the 44 russian when i want too
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
You can shoot .44Russian in a .44Spl chamber but that's not what you asked.
Every time I've called Cimarron to ask about .44Spl 1866's and 1873's, they've been out of stock.
Every time I've called Cimarron to ask about .44Spl 1866's and 1873's, they've been out of stock.
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