Winchester 1890 .22 WRF conversion to WMR?

[walker944]

I have an old 1890 .22 WRF that I'd like to have converted to .22 Mag. Does anyone know a gunsmith that would do this for me? I talked with a local smith a couple of years ago, but he wouldn't do the job due to his concerns with the magnum having higher pressures than the WRF. However, I've seen several online posts about people who have a converted rifle and it functions just fine. I understand if someone isn't comfortable doing the job....I just need to find someone who is.

 

[rcmodel]

Probably not a real good idea considering the age of the steel.
There is a considerable pressure difference.

The other thing is, I'm not real sure there is enough room in the cartridge carrier to allow it to be drilled out deep enough to feed the longer .22 WMR cartridge.

rc

 

[walker944]

Well, based on other's successful conversion and much successful shooting thereafter, I'm thinking the pressures are not as much a physical issue as it is a mental issue. And, with the testimony of the other successful conversions, the carrier and other mods are doable. Looking for someone willing to do it.

 

[walker944]

Here's a link to an auction that has had the conversion done:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=312517985

Quote from the seller: "This left the factory as a WRF & has been professional converted to .22 Magnum. It has been the favorite shooter of the last owner & he claims over 500 trouble-free rounds fired since the conversion. I have shot it, it functions perfectly & is a tack driver at 50 yards. Nice crisp action; it loads, cycles, fires & ejects without issues & the bore is like excellent; bright & shiny with no frosting. Converting an 1890 from WRF to Magnum consists of lengthening the chamber & lifter (carrier) depth a little."

 

[walker944]

I contacted the seller from the above linked auction. Here's what he had to say:

The chamber pressures created by a .22 magnum are higher than those created by a .22 WRF. However .22 Long & .22 LR are the same as .22 Mag. The Model 1890 was available in long & LR. The only difference in the rifle is the depth of the carrier & the depth of the chamber. Winchester did not make weaker action for .22 WRF, it is the same action. That is the theory used in converting this & several other 1890’s to .22 mag. This rifle was done several years ago & has been fired without an issue. I had it out last week & put about 100 rounds thru it. I would not fire hot loads through it but it will safety shoot regular .22 mags, all day long! The chart below is all I could find on the internet showing chamber pressures for these rounds. It is for pistols but the info should be the same.

Does this make sense. It does to me, assuming he is correct that the pressures of a mag and LR are the same. Thoughts?

 

[788Ham]

The gent that answered your post, rc, knows of what he speaks, best listen. The old steel has as much to do with it than anything, best heed ! Take the money you'd spend on a smith, but a .22 mag and be done with it.

 

[walker944]

Sorry, Ham, that's not much of a discussion point at all. The fact that the 1890 was made in .22 LR, and that .22 LR & .22 Mag and are cited as having the same pressures completely negates the argument about "old steal". As stated in the citation above, "Winchester did not make weaker action for .22 WRF".

Take the money you'd spend on a smith, but a .22 mag and be done with it.

Not really your concern, now, is it? FWIW, I have other .22 mags, I just looking to convert this particular one. If I'd like to spend money to create a more useful & sentimental piece that is entirely my business.

 

[Jim K]

I have never done that conversion and would refuse to do it. First, the pressure of the .22 WRM is the same as that of the MODERN .22 LR in PSI, but the gun was not made for MODERN .22 LR. In addition, the larger and longer WRM case has more square inches than the .22 LR and so the TOTAL pressure is greater. Second, there should be concern about the effect on that old soft steel barrel of jacketed bullets at high velocity. I doubt the rifling will last long.

Jim

 

[walker944]

Thanks Jim, I appreciate your input. So, what kind of pressure differences are we talking about? I can understand the apprehensions and concerns; but, let's add some emperical data...what are the pressures differences between olden days .22 LR and modern .22 LR? Or, asked differently, what was the .22 LR gas pressure in 1941 (last year the 1890 was manufactured)?

 

[BBBBill]

What is the bore diameter of the 22WRF compared to the 22WMR? That might play into the equation, too. If the WRF is (like the 22LR) tighter than the WMR, that will likely add to the pressure.

 

[.22-5-40]

Hello, Interesting posts! The old .22 WRF used a .226 dia. bullet..so the modern magnum would probably leak gas around bullet..adding to bore wear from gas-cutting. I would be more concerned of how this action could handle a burst case rim..that long firing pin channel has a straight passage right back to your eye.
One interesting thing is when Browning designed this action, there were plans to chamber these for the .22 WCF..another old .226 dia. bullet black powder number..that in the early 30's..was modernized to become the .22 Hornet.

 

[jaguarxk120]

You also notice the auction ended with NO bidders!!

That conversion destroyed all collector value of the rifle.

 

[JohnBT]

The thing that concerns me isn't the peak pressure, but the duration of the peak - how long the high pressure lasts and the effect on the old metal after repeated firing.

There's even a DIY computerized pressure measuring kit available. If you look at the charts/graphs, you'll see that there isn't simply a sudden pressure spike and then it's gone.

www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm

 

[Jim Watson]

I recall an old gunzine article in which the intrepid experimenter reamed WRF chamber and carrier to WRM and then cut the whole darned thing down into a pump action pistol.
He bent the tangs into kind of a Bisley shape and cut the barrel and magazine tube down to 8". The pump "handle" was just the metal sleeve under the original wood trimmed and checkered. It was really well done and looked like a neat project. One of those things that makes a nice DIY for the skilled, but would be horrifying to price out at a gunsmith's.

Unfortunately the BATF took official notice and confiscated it before he had time to shoot it enough to test durability.


In an even older gunzine, Frank DeHaas described converting a 1903 .22 Winchester Auto to WRM. He put in an enormous amount of work getting it to function. It actually ended up as a delayed blowback rather than the original T.C. Johnson straight blowback design.

There are a lot of things that can be done, that have been done, that are apparently too challenging and risky for The Internet Age.

 

[walker944]

You also notice the auction ended with NO bidders!!

No big surprise there...neither do the guestimated 95% of the auctions on GunBroker, on any given day. Clearly his starting bid point is higher than anyone was willing to pay. Same thing with guns on the table at any/every gun show I attend.

That conversion destroyed all collector value of the rifle.

I'm not looking to retain collector value.

 

[Jim K]

Pressures of old ammo are hard to determine, since there was no SAAMI to set standards, but I seem to recall reading that the old .22 Long (for which most old rifles were chambered)* ran about 15k psi. Both the .22 Long and the .22 Long Rifle began as black powder cartridges so that pressure level seems reasonable. The .22 LR standard velocity came out in 1887; in the 1930's the high velocity cartridges were introduced a pressure level of 24k psi, still the SAAMI standard.

Modern "super velocity" .22's keep to the same pressure level, getting increased speed from slower burning powder and a lighter bullet.

Jim

*.22 Long has been hard to find for many years and some shooters have used .22 LR in the older guns; there is usually no problem with rifles but some old revolvers have been damaged or destroyed by .22 LR HV.

JK

 

[triggerman770]

I have refused a couple of times to do this conversion for one word reason....LIABLITY..its not q question of if that conversion will fail it's when..the guy on the internet that has hundreds of rounds down his with no ka-boom is simply lucky. Saami shows the Maximum Average pressure in both rounds as being the same..that DOES NOT mean the pressure in a given gun/ammo combination is that as shown in saami's chart because no test was done in a converted rifle like you suggest, they were done in test barrels which are very thick in the chamber region. for the O.P. was the guy on the internet an active gunsmith? maybe he will do it for you.
just a word on pressure. it is cumulative..the more an over pressure round is fired in any gun the more the added stress to the metal, and it adds up til one day it goes ka-boom.Be sure your helth insurance is good to go.