Winchester 38-55 Issues

[RowdyReid]

Hello everyone! I am fairly new to reloading, especially compared to a lot of you veterans, and I need some advice. I have been reloading for a couple of years, and I have continually been stumped by a Henry H024 38-55. I slugged the Henry bore and found it to be exactly at SAAMI specs.

As I'm sure a lot of you are aware, the 38-55 is pretty illusive when it comes to finding load data. I have been sticking with a load that I found written by my uncle who used to hand load a lot. It's a hard cast 255 grain flat nose (acme) .378, Starline Brass case and CCI large rifle primers with 28 grains of IMR3031.

Now, it shoots, but not well. It won't group and velocities are around 900 feet per second. I have tried 26.5 grains of powder up to 30. There is no difference in accuracy and velocity doesn't change more than 50 or 100 fps.

Is 3031 too slow for this application? Should I size up the cast bullet to .379 to fill the grooves completely?

Thanks for any input.

 

[larry7293]

Been trying to buy the the henry 38-55. Seems to be out of stock at most places.
Henry rifle forum folks size their bullets to .379.

 

[RowdyReid]

Been trying to buy the the henry 38-55. Seems to be out of stock at most places.
Henry rifle forum folks size their bullets to .379.

I was lucky to get mine in late 2019. When it arrived, I had to clean some rust out of the receiver. Luckily it was only surface rust, nothing was damaged or pitted. The side gate seems to retain a lot of moisture, I keep it well oiled.

Would a .379 with gas check work, or would the gas check be treated more as a jacketed bullet? I am unfamiliar with hard cast bullets.

 

[AJC1]

I was lucky to get mine in late 2019. When it arrived, I had to clean some rust out of the receiver. Luckily it was only surface rust, nothing was damaged or pitted. The side gate seems to retain a lot of moisture, I keep it well oiled.

Would a .379 with gas check work, or would the gas check be treated more as a jacketed bullet? I am unfamiliar with hard cast bullets.

Is your barrel a micro grove or Ballard? The sizing of your bullets is different and more critical in micro. At those velositys a gas check may be more of a hindrance than a help. Your in 45acp territory and I would go softer in bhn to see if you get better opteration. I'm guessing your using a traditional lubrasizer as you didnt mention powdercoat. What lube are you using.

 

[RowdyReid]

Is your barrel a micro grove or Ballard? The sizing of your bullets is different and more critical in micro. At those velositys a gas check may be more of a hindrance than a help. Your in 45acp territory and I would go softer in bhn to see if you get better opteration. I'm guessing your using a traditional lubrasizer as you didnt mention powdercoat. What lube are you using.

Im using Acme hard cast bullets, they come pre lubed with a red lubricant. I would like to increase velocity to 1300 or more. Its a modern rifle, not sure of the rifling. Im not looking for a quarter sized group, more of a coffee cup at 50 yards would be great. The grouping now is about paper plate size at 50. I'm assuming the 3031 just isn't fast enough for the rifle (18" barrel). 6 grains of trail boss would get similar fps according to Lee. I may try some H4198 that Lee has listed, but there aren't many options aside from that and H322.

 

[25-20 WCF]

…As I'm sure a lot of you are aware, the 38-55 is pretty illusive when it comes to finding load data. I have been sticking with a load that I found written by my uncle who used to hand load a lot. It's a hard cast 255 grain flat nose (acme) .378, Starline Brass case and CCI large rifle primers with 28 grains of IMR3031…

I’ve been loading the .38-55 for over 40 years and I not aware of this problem. Lyman has quite a bit of cast bullet data, Hodgdon has some, RCBS, Handloader Pet Loads, etc. Even here:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...h-imr-3031-and-260-grain-cast-bullets.874289/

The Henry doesn’t have MicroGroove rifling, thats a Marlin thing. But what is this magical “SAAMI specs” you mention, it’s hard to tell your exact measurement. SAAMI states it has a groove diameter of 0.379” to 0.381”. What do you have? That could be your accuracy problem.

I found that my rifle wouldn’t shoot the 250-265 grain cast bullets well if loaded under about 1100 fps, but that may be rifle-specific. I had my best results with Unique, Universal, H4895 and SR4759, the latter sadly discontinued. Velocities were in the 1300 fps range because that’s what I wanted, the last two powders could certainly be increased for higher speeds.

Here’s a good discussion of loading for the cartridge:
https://www.starlinebrass.com/articles/loading-with-correct-38-55-winchester-cases-38-55-rifle/


.

 

[RowdyReid]

I’ve been loading the .38-55 for over 40 years and I not aware of this problem. Lyman has quite a bit of cast bullet data, Hodgdon has some, RCBS, Handloader Pet Loads, etc. Even here:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...h-imr-3031-and-260-grain-cast-bullets.874289/

The Henry doesn’t have MicroGroove rifling, thats a Marlin thing. But what is this magical “SAAMI specs” you mention, it’s hard to tell your exact measurement. SAAMI states it has a groove diameter of 0.379” to 0.381”. What do you have? That could be your accuracy problem.

I found that my rifle wouldn’t shoot the 250-265 grain cast bullets well if loaded under about 1100 fps, but that may be rifle-specific. I had my best results with Unique, Universal, H4895 and SR4759, the latter sadly discontinued. Velocities were in the 1300 fps range because that’s what I wanted, the last two powders could certainly be increased for higher speeds.

Here’s a good discussion of loading for the cartridge:
https://www.starlinebrass.com/articles/loading-with-correct-38-55-winchester-cases-38-55-rifle/


.

Sorry, my mistake. Groove diameter is .379, lands (?) are .373.

Which Lyman edition has the most 38-55 load data? The manuals I have available to me don't have much information on it. The only load for H4895 i can find is Lee data, 250 grain lead at 21-26 grains of powder. They claim 1600 fps at 26 grains, but I dont have any 4895 and I dont have any 250 grain lead bullets. Would 5 grains matter that much on the bullet side if I found some 4895?

Also, my oal seems to be most consistent at 2.513", which is just a smidgen less than the max oal my rifle will accept with the bullets I'm using.

Thank you for your insight, I appreciate it very much.

 

[SASS#23149]

5 grains +- is within tolerance on a cast bullet. Voids in the bullet can cause weight differences, pretty common. You can push a gas checked cast bullet harder than a non gc, don't think u want to go full jacketed fps but let the manuals guide you on that.
3031 is a good powder for 38-55, if the henry crowd reccomends .379 I'd sure give that a try. Be sure if you have shot any jacketed ammo in the gun to CLEAN IT, then clean the bore some more. It really mad a diff. in an older Marlin I had.

 

[Roverguy]

A few things going on.

You are shooting an undersized “hard cast” bullet at low velocity. Not only is that not a good recipe for accuracy, it is a recipe for leading. And delivering 900 fps with 28 grs of 3031 and a 255 grs bullet tells us there are serious problems. That’s a 1300 -1400 fps load in a 24” tube. So 900 fps suggests a lot of blow-by.

3031 is a great and versatile powder, but with cast bullets, best used with tight fit, heavy for caliber bullets. Your bullet is undesired and hard, promoting blow-by and gas cutting.

Given the component shortages, let’s stick with 3031. You want to get hold of some heavy for caliber .380” plain base bullets at BHN 10-12. Hodgdon offers published load data for 3031, and I predict you will be more successful in the upper third of available load range for bullet weight.

Good luck

 

[RowdyReid]

Ok, thank you for the replies. I have some different bullets on order and will give the oversized rounds a try. I thought 900 fps was low for 3031, but wasn't sure of exactly what was causing it. Blowby makes a lot to sense though.

I have never fired jacketed rounds out of this rifle, only lead. I clean it thoroughly after 15 or 20 rounds, making sure there is no fouling.

Ill try some oversized rounds, I might try some gas checked rounds too to see what happens.

Thanks again for the help

 

[RowdyReid]

So, I have what may be a dumb question, and I never really thought about it before seeing a post that someone else made, but every one of my rounds has a case bulge at the base of the bullet. It looks like the case mouth is too small, and is stretched to fit the bullet. It is only around 2/3 of the diameter of the case, the other 1/3 looks fine.

Is this something I am messing up when seating, or is it something else?

 

[AJC1]

So, I have what may be a dumb question, and I never really thought about it before seeing a post that someone else made, but every one of my rounds has a case bulge at the base of the bullet. It looks like the case mouth is too small, and is stretched to fit the bullet. It is only around 2/3 of the diameter of the case, the other 1/3 looks fine.

Is this something I am messing up when seating, or is it something else?View attachment 1022784

You may be over sizing your brass. Measure a sized piece and one with a bullet. If it's over. 003 bigger your oversizing.

 

[RowdyReid]

Oversizing as in too much flare before seating? Loaded rounds are .008 larger than sized casings.

 

[AJC1]

Oversizing as in too much flare before seating?

As in your sizing die is to small.

 

[RowdyReid]

Is there a known issue with the Lee dies for 38-55?

Edit: I guess there is an issue. Lee basically repackaged the 375 Win die set as the 38-55. They published it on their website in the support section, but the information is not on the marketed product.

Looks like I need some advice on getting a new set of dies. Im hesitant to buy Lee again after finding this out.

 

[AJC1]

Is there a known issue with the Lee dies for 38-55?

Edit: I guess there is an issue. Lee basically repackaged the 375 Win die set as the 38-55. They published it on their website in the support section, but the information is not on the marketed product.

Looks like I need some advice on getting a new set of dies. Im hesitant to buy Lee again after finding this out.

There are many companies that make custom sizing dies with 3 pieces of fired brass. That's a very cool gun and worth it imo. Widden is by far the most expensive and beyond what you need.

 

[RowdyReid]

Thank you for your help. I am not happy about the sneaky pete Lee pulled. The cases are actually nearly out of spec because they cut corners. I dont think ill be buying from them anymore.

 

[25-20 WCF]

No need to go all drama queen about the Lee dies. Actually the .375 WCF has less case taper than the .38-55 does so a .375 die will work your brass less than a SAAMI .38-55 die will. And you don’t need new dies either. Because the case is tapered, just back your FL sizing die out 5/8” and size a case. This reduces the amount of sizing and your case neck will be larger in diameter. Adjust the die up or down to get the amount of case neck diameter reduction you need to hold a bullet firmly without the case bulge. This is how experienced .38-55 loaders custom size their brass for their bullet/chamber combination. Easy peasy.




.

 

[.308 Norma]

Because the case is tapered, just back your FL sizing die out 5/8” and size a case.

5/8" ?
Did you hit the wrong key? 5/8" sounds like a lot.

 

[AJC1]

5/8" ?
Did you hit the wrong key? 5/8" sounds like a lot.

He is referring to partial sizing like used on 30/30 and 45/70. Its a work around for poorly made dies.

 

[.308 Norma]

He is referring to partial sizing like used on 30/30 and 45/70.

Or "partial sizing" like I use for my belted magnums - my .308 Norma Mag and my wife's 7mm Rem Mag. 5/8" still sounds like a long ways to back out a sizing die.

 

[AJC1]

 

[RowdyReid]

I'll give it a try. Thank you all again for the help.

 

[FROGO207]

Alternatively you could send your sizing die back to Lee and have it opened up. No Idea how long it would take though.

 

[RowdyReid]

So, something very unexpected happened last night. I took the rifle out to shoot the remaining loaded rounds out, and among 4 different shooters at 60 yards, the loads didn't miss. We were shooting at a 10 inch gong. We shot 8 or 9 of the 3031 loads, and a few 4198 loads. The 4198 seemed to group a little tighter than the 3031. Does the case being undersized have any effect on accuracy, or is it just cosmetic?