This may be basic, but I'm at a loss. Can someone explain or point me to a reference on how to tell if my model 97 is a riot or trench gun? It's labeled as a Winchester Model 1897 and has the short barrel. I inherited it from my Dad who used it in Viet Nam. There's a E above the s/n and what appears to be Winchester stamps on the barrel and action. I can post pictures if that would help. Thanks in advance.
Winchester 97 trench or riot?
- Thread starter erich505
- Start date
- Status
Atticus_1354
Member
- Joined
- May 18, 2007
- Messages
- 79
Would you mind posting pictures just because I want to see it? It also might help someone smarter than me on this subject.
Gunsnrovers
Member
Not an expert, but I believe the easy to spot differences will be that a proper trench gun barrel will have notches for the screws that hold the heat shield/bayonet lug assembly to the barrel and it will have a swivel on the butt stock.
MrAcheson
Member
A trench gun (in original condition) will have a bayonet mount on the barrel and magazine tube. Like this Norinco Reproduction does.
Photos to go with request for ID
Here a couple photos (I hope this works--this is my first try). There are two 'grooves' on the underside of the barrel towards the front. These MAY have been for some type of attachment--I'm not sure. If you need more detail let me know and I'll add more pictures.
Here a couple photos (I hope this works--this is my first try). There are two 'grooves' on the underside of the barrel towards the front. These MAY have been for some type of attachment--I'm not sure. If you need more detail let me know and I'll add more pictures.
Attachments
Brother in Arms
Member
The U.S government used the Model 97 in two different configurations the Trench gun and the Riot gun.
The "Trench gun" model has a 20 inch barrel with ventilated steel heat sheild on the top of the barrel with built in bayonet lug and front site. It also has a sling swivel let into the butt stock. However over time many of these are missing the heatshield/bayonet lug. I believe all trench guns are marked with the Flaming bomb symbol. The 1897 used the 16" Bayonet from the Model 1917 enfield.
The "Riot gun" has a 20 inch barrel and is fitted with sling swivels and has no provision for a bayonet.
I believe the riot version is the rarer of the two models used by the U.S. government, though both in original condition are VERY valuable. Information of the Serial number range can be found through collectors I believe there is a book by Bruce Canfield (spelling?) called Combat shotguns that discusses U.S. Military Shotguns.
There is a signifigant amount of information devoted to these shotguns I suggest doing as much as you can and get it appraised. By the way has your shotgun been refinished??? One thing of note is that these shotguns especially the trench gun model is highly faked. Something to consider when thinking of buying an original. A freind of mine got burned on a very high qaulity fake that someone made even had the correct stampings...but when he checked the serial numbers the gun had been made in 1955.
here is a link to another good book on these firearms: by Joe Poyer
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1882391020?tag=olivedrabcom&camp=15041&creative=373501&link_code=as3
Brother in Arms
The "Trench gun" model has a 20 inch barrel with ventilated steel heat sheild on the top of the barrel with built in bayonet lug and front site. It also has a sling swivel let into the butt stock. However over time many of these are missing the heatshield/bayonet lug. I believe all trench guns are marked with the Flaming bomb symbol. The 1897 used the 16" Bayonet from the Model 1917 enfield.
The "Riot gun" has a 20 inch barrel and is fitted with sling swivels and has no provision for a bayonet.
I believe the riot version is the rarer of the two models used by the U.S. government, though both in original condition are VERY valuable. Information of the Serial number range can be found through collectors I believe there is a book by Bruce Canfield (spelling?) called Combat shotguns that discusses U.S. Military Shotguns.
There is a signifigant amount of information devoted to these shotguns I suggest doing as much as you can and get it appraised. By the way has your shotgun been refinished??? One thing of note is that these shotguns especially the trench gun model is highly faked. Something to consider when thinking of buying an original. A freind of mine got burned on a very high qaulity fake that someone made even had the correct stampings...but when he checked the serial numbers the gun had been made in 1955.
here is a link to another good book on these firearms: by Joe Poyer
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1882391020?tag=olivedrabcom&camp=15041&creative=373501&link_code=as3
Brother in Arms
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Our crew equipment in SEA included a 97 riot model. Not USAF issue.
Acquired through "Irregular" channels, now in Ohio. Little finish, some dings, high mileage, zero glitches.
Acquired through "Irregular" channels, now in Ohio. Little finish, some dings, high mileage, zero glitches.
Brother in Arms
Member
The Model 1897 was certainly still being used in vietnam and even later.
I have seen a picture from vietnam of a soldier armed with a Model 1897 trenchgun. Currently the book that its located in is packed away but I can supply you with the title of the book and page# if you would like.
The Military seldom gets rid of all of anything even after it is "obsolete" and often times they will sell or lend them to police departments recently I saw some 97 trenchguns that a police department is just now selling off.
for instance the Maine National gaurd was using some M1C and M1D rifles as late as the 1980's
Brother in Arms
I have seen a picture from vietnam of a soldier armed with a Model 1897 trenchgun. Currently the book that its located in is packed away but I can supply you with the title of the book and page# if you would like.
The Military seldom gets rid of all of anything even after it is "obsolete" and often times they will sell or lend them to police departments recently I saw some 97 trenchguns that a police department is just now selling off.
for instance the Maine National gaurd was using some M1C and M1D rifles as late as the 1980's
Brother in Arms
No need on my account - I certainly believe you.
I am a bit surprised however that they made it into service in any quantity or capacity that late in the game. A number of very good military shotguns had come along by then that I would consider as better choices. I have nothing against the 97 , but by vietnam you had the Win. Model 12, the Stevens 520 and 620, the Ithaca 37 , the Remingtons including 870's, and perhaps a few other more modern pump guns I'm forgetting to mention. I'm not sure at what time the Mossberg 500's started seeing military use, but they also were available at that time.
Interesting that some of the old 97's hung on for that long - thanks for the info !
- Status
