Winchester M1 carbines?
- Thread starter m.pieroni
- Start date
- Status
USSR
Member
Uh, Springfield (the U.S. gov't Springfield) never made M1 Carbines.
Don
keyboard commando
Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2007
- Messages
- 213
Winchester
I once owned a Winchester. Quality was equal to any other. No malfunctions as long as I stuck with 15 round magazines.
I once owned a Winchester. Quality was equal to any other. No malfunctions as long as I stuck with 15 round magazines.
mnw42
Member
I have a IBM/Underwood from '44. You may be mistaking SA marked parts which were made by the Saginaw Division of GM
Last edited:
ScottsGT
Member
I've got a Winchester. Real nice Carbine.
From what I have heard, Winchester was not one of the better manufacturers. They just have the best name recognition.
I was talking to a gentleman who used to live in New Haven Conn. There were lots of retired Winchester employees around.
Winchester used old machines and horrible process controls to make rifles in WWII. You can read about the obsolete manufacturing flows in the book FN/FAL, a Collector’s series. A FN factory rep wrote up his Winchester trip report.
As I understand it they had so many function problems that they had a large group of workers whose job was to file and fit the rejects at the end of the production line.
I also heard that other Carbine vendors were refusing Winchester parts. The Government had vendors ship parts to each other when a vendor was running low and the shortage was threatening deliveries. In theory all the parts were supposed to be interchangeable, but apparently some contractors, and Winchester was one of them, had a very bad reputation.
If you examine a Winchester M1 Garand, and compare against a Springfield, the rough workmanship of the Winchester is readily apparent.
I have never handled an all original Winchester carbine, 99% of carbines went through rebuilds, but I expect they are the same rough corn cobs.
However, due to their name recognition, they command a premium. Like like the Colt name brings a premium.
I was talking to a gentleman who used to live in New Haven Conn. There were lots of retired Winchester employees around.
Winchester used old machines and horrible process controls to make rifles in WWII. You can read about the obsolete manufacturing flows in the book FN/FAL, a Collector’s series. A FN factory rep wrote up his Winchester trip report.
As I understand it they had so many function problems that they had a large group of workers whose job was to file and fit the rejects at the end of the production line.
I also heard that other Carbine vendors were refusing Winchester parts. The Government had vendors ship parts to each other when a vendor was running low and the shortage was threatening deliveries. In theory all the parts were supposed to be interchangeable, but apparently some contractors, and Winchester was one of them, had a very bad reputation.
If you examine a Winchester M1 Garand, and compare against a Springfield, the rough workmanship of the Winchester is readily apparent.
I have never handled an all original Winchester carbine, 99% of carbines went through rebuilds, but I expect they are the same rough corn cobs.
However, due to their name recognition, they command a premium. Like like the Colt name brings a premium.
Spiggy
Member
Rock-Ola Music Corporation (ROCK-OLA) -Also made ancient ipods
Standard Products (STANDARD PRODUCTS) -Not sure
International Business Machines (IBM) -Made computers and calculators
Quality Hardware (QUALITY HARDWARE) -Hardware
National Postal Meter (NATIONAL POSTER METER) -Postal stuff, I guess
Saginaw (SAGINAW DIVISION,GENERAL MOTORS)S.G. -Car stuff
Saginaw (Grand Rapids) S'G' -Car stuff
Underwood-Elliot-Fisher (UNDERWOOD) -Typewriters? dunno, what else did they make?
Winchester (WINCHESTER) -Winchester made typewriters at one point...
Inland (INLAND DIVISION, GENERAL MOTORS -Car dudes again
They're pretty much the same, really the only difference is the demand due to rarity (low production levels)
Rockola, Standard Products, and IBM produced the least amount of carbines, however, Rockola, IBM, Underwood, and Winchester are most popular due to their relations of products made before the war. Rockola manufactured jukeboxes, IBM and Underwood made business machinining, and Winchester is of firearm fame
Standard Products (STANDARD PRODUCTS) -Not sure
International Business Machines (IBM) -Made computers and calculators
Quality Hardware (QUALITY HARDWARE) -Hardware
National Postal Meter (NATIONAL POSTER METER) -Postal stuff, I guess
Saginaw (SAGINAW DIVISION,GENERAL MOTORS)S.G. -Car stuff
Saginaw (Grand Rapids) S'G' -Car stuff
Underwood-Elliot-Fisher (UNDERWOOD) -Typewriters? dunno, what else did they make?
Winchester (WINCHESTER) -Winchester made typewriters at one point...
Inland (INLAND DIVISION, GENERAL MOTORS -Car dudes again
They're pretty much the same, really the only difference is the demand due to rarity (low production levels)
Rockola, Standard Products, and IBM produced the least amount of carbines, however, Rockola, IBM, Underwood, and Winchester are most popular due to their relations of products made before the war. Rockola manufactured jukeboxes, IBM and Underwood made business machinining, and Winchester is of firearm fame
Winchester Carbine
Things "heard" and "understood" with no provable source are considered rumors.
Here is an all Winchester Carbine that is great. It went through upgrade adding the revised parts (sight, safety, bayo lug, etc.) No "cobb" on this one. Post wouldn't allow the pic.
Things "heard" and "understood" with no provable source are considered rumors.
Here is an all Winchester Carbine that is great. It went through upgrade adding the revised parts (sight, safety, bayo lug, etc.) No "cobb" on this one. Post wouldn't allow the pic.
Last edited:
beertracker
Member
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2006
- Messages
- 20
You will probably get more answers over at the CMP forum. I have noticed quite a few carbine posts over there.
Beertracker
Beertracker
Well perhaps my post was a little unfair. The Winchester that existed prior to WWII desires a lot of credit for having come up with such a successful design, in an exceptionally short period of time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine
Last night I looked through my book “War Baby” and saw that Winchester had production problems. Most of the M1 carbine vendors had production problems, some, like Underwood, did an exceptional job in the transition to production.
If you have never gone through something like that, the transition from hand built items to full scale production is the most risky phase of any program.
That’s why you should not buy a first year production car.
However, the book did verify that Winchester produced their firearms on old, obsolete equipment. The FN book shows that their chaotic and illogical production flow created the situation for out of tolerance parts to stack up, and then be assembled days, weeks, if not months later into the final assembly.
According to the book deliveries from Winchester were suspended in Aug 1944, by the Government, and 10,000 fully assembled firearms were re inspected and reworked.
However, they were not the “bad” Boy. Rockola apparently was the worst managed of all the M1 Carbine makers. Ordnance basically had to take over and run the plant to get anything out the door.
Last night I looked through my book “War Baby” and saw that Winchester had production problems. Most of the M1 carbine vendors had production problems, some, like Underwood, did an exceptional job in the transition to production.
If you have never gone through something like that, the transition from hand built items to full scale production is the most risky phase of any program.
That’s why you should not buy a first year production car.
However, the book did verify that Winchester produced their firearms on old, obsolete equipment. The FN book shows that their chaotic and illogical production flow created the situation for out of tolerance parts to stack up, and then be assembled days, weeks, if not months later into the final assembly.
According to the book deliveries from Winchester were suspended in Aug 1944, by the Government, and 10,000 fully assembled firearms were re inspected and reworked.
However, they were not the “bad” Boy. Rockola apparently was the worst managed of all the M1 Carbine makers. Ordnance basically had to take over and run the plant to get anything out the door.
rellascout
member
Nothing wrong with a Winchester Carbine.
They are very collectible due to the name recognition and the fact they were the original designer. They were the second largest manufacturer after Inland.
M1 Carbine Production
Inland Manufacturing Division, G.M.C...... 2,632,097 43.0%
Winchester Repeating Arms Co................ 828,059 13.5%
Underwood-Elliot-Fisher Co.................. 545,616 8.9%
* Saginaw Steering Gear Div., G.M.C........... 517,212 8.5%
** National Postal Meter Co.................... 413,017 6.8%
*** Quality Hardware & Machine Co............... 359,666 5.9%
International Business Machines Corp (IBM).. 346,500 5.7%
Standard Products Co........................ 247,160 4.0%
Rock-Ola Co................................. 228,500 3.7%
---------
Total: 6,221,220
They are very collectible due to the name recognition and the fact they were the original designer. They were the second largest manufacturer after Inland.
M1 Carbine Production
Inland Manufacturing Division, G.M.C...... 2,632,097 43.0%
Winchester Repeating Arms Co................ 828,059 13.5%
Underwood-Elliot-Fisher Co.................. 545,616 8.9%
* Saginaw Steering Gear Div., G.M.C........... 517,212 8.5%
** National Postal Meter Co.................... 413,017 6.8%
*** Quality Hardware & Machine Co............... 359,666 5.9%
International Business Machines Corp (IBM).. 346,500 5.7%
Standard Products Co........................ 247,160 4.0%
Rock-Ola Co................................. 228,500 3.7%
---------
Total: 6,221,220
kBob
Member
All else being equal dispite the rarity of some other models I would pick a Winchester Carbine.
The one I had in my teens was a good'un and shot a good bit. I just liked it and chose it from a batch of others by other makers.
As to the speed in which Winchester was able to produce a new design and model pieces....
The M-1 Carbine was WInchester project number G or M 31. Project model 30 was authorized on September 25 , 1941. It was a .30-06 caliber rifle with a removable magazine I understand it used a WIlliams Tappet gas system and that it used a Garand style turning bolt driven by an operating rod with initial free travel, then slow initial extraction during unlocking.
Winchester was making deliveries of the US M-1 (Garand) rifle even before their M-30 (oddly the M-1 RIfle project number is M 39 though it was undertaken and deliveries actually made before either the Model 30 or M1 Carbine were authorized by the company for development).
Despite the pressures of war time production on the M1 rifle and carbine Winchester offered an improved model of the M30 (M30R) in 1943 for government testing.
I dredged all this form a copy of Duncan Barnes, et al, "The History of Winchester Firearms 1866-1980," Winchester press Clinton NJ 1980.
Looks like the quick development of the Carbine may have been from scaleing down the M30 project.
Now the "the US could'a fought WWII with rifles with detachable magazines" crowd may take up the cry of "see it worked in .30 Carbine!"
I do wonder if the Model 30 and Model 30R helped to drive the late and post war A20 project of making an M1 Rifle take a removable magazine and be select fire.
-Bob Hollingsworth
The one I had in my teens was a good'un and shot a good bit. I just liked it and chose it from a batch of others by other makers.
As to the speed in which Winchester was able to produce a new design and model pieces....
The M-1 Carbine was WInchester project number G or M 31. Project model 30 was authorized on September 25 , 1941. It was a .30-06 caliber rifle with a removable magazine I understand it used a WIlliams Tappet gas system and that it used a Garand style turning bolt driven by an operating rod with initial free travel, then slow initial extraction during unlocking.
Winchester was making deliveries of the US M-1 (Garand) rifle even before their M-30 (oddly the M-1 RIfle project number is M 39 though it was undertaken and deliveries actually made before either the Model 30 or M1 Carbine were authorized by the company for development).
Despite the pressures of war time production on the M1 rifle and carbine Winchester offered an improved model of the M30 (M30R) in 1943 for government testing.
I dredged all this form a copy of Duncan Barnes, et al, "The History of Winchester Firearms 1866-1980," Winchester press Clinton NJ 1980.
Looks like the quick development of the Carbine may have been from scaleing down the M30 project.
Now the "the US could'a fought WWII with rifles with detachable magazines" crowd may take up the cry of "see it worked in .30 Carbine!"
I do wonder if the Model 30 and Model 30R helped to drive the late and post war A20 project of making an M1 Rifle take a removable magazine and be select fire.
-Bob Hollingsworth
dmftoy1
Member
My CMP October 1943 Winchester arrived today (Winchester barrel, Winchester bolt, and winchester trigger bow. I put a couple of patches down the barrel to ensure it was clean and put a little lube in the appropriate spots and took it out for some exercise. I was amazed that the sights were regulated correctly, and I could hit what I was aiming at (offhand) at 50 yards with no problem. It shot MUCH MUCH better than I expected. (Color me happy!)
In comparing it's condition to other's I've seen at gunshows over the last few months I'd say the parkerizing is as good as theirs, and the worst tooling marks are on the "non-winchester" parts. (Saginaw slide)
Just my .02
I just need to do some work on this FAT stock and see if I can get it looking as good as the rest of the rifle.
Have a good one,
Dave
In comparing it's condition to other's I've seen at gunshows over the last few months I'd say the parkerizing is as good as theirs, and the worst tooling marks are on the "non-winchester" parts. (Saginaw slide)
Just my .02
I just need to do some work on this FAT stock and see if I can get it looking as good as the rest of the rifle.
Have a good one,
Dave
bannockburn
Member
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2007
- Messages
- 26,308
From Bruce Canfield's "A Collector's Guide to the M1 Garand and the M1 Carbine":
The carbine was composed of some sixty component parts. The ten prime contractors actually manufactured very few of these parts and the rest were supplied by a vast network of subcontractors. One of the prime contractors made just one part of the carbine (the receiver), while none produced over 15 of the gun's 60 parts. The prime contractor was responsible for the final assembly of the carbines and their delivery to the government.
Some interesting contractor's variations (courtesy of Mr. Canfield):
Rock Ola marked many of its parts with its full name, unlike the other contractors who used a manufacturer's code.
Quality hardware had some of its receivers made by Union Switch and Signal (who also made M1911A1 pistols), and the receivers were marked "UN-QUALITY".
National Postal Meter changed its company name to Commercial Controls near the end of its production run. It is believed that some 200 carbines were made with the Commercial Controls marking.
Irwin-Pedersen Arms Company was the only prime contractor unable to fulfill its production order to the government. Only 1,000 carbines were made, but undelivered, when the contract was taken over by the Saginaw Gear Division of GM. Saginaw Gear actually ran two plants, the I-P plant in Grand Rapids, MI, and their own in Saginaw, MI.
Some of the receivers for the IBM carbines were made by Auto Ordnance, who had also made the Thompson submachine gun
The carbine was composed of some sixty component parts. The ten prime contractors actually manufactured very few of these parts and the rest were supplied by a vast network of subcontractors. One of the prime contractors made just one part of the carbine (the receiver), while none produced over 15 of the gun's 60 parts. The prime contractor was responsible for the final assembly of the carbines and their delivery to the government.
Some interesting contractor's variations (courtesy of Mr. Canfield):
Rock Ola marked many of its parts with its full name, unlike the other contractors who used a manufacturer's code.
Quality hardware had some of its receivers made by Union Switch and Signal (who also made M1911A1 pistols), and the receivers were marked "UN-QUALITY".
National Postal Meter changed its company name to Commercial Controls near the end of its production run. It is believed that some 200 carbines were made with the Commercial Controls marking.
Irwin-Pedersen Arms Company was the only prime contractor unable to fulfill its production order to the government. Only 1,000 carbines were made, but undelivered, when the contract was taken over by the Saginaw Gear Division of GM. Saginaw Gear actually ran two plants, the I-P plant in Grand Rapids, MI, and their own in Saginaw, MI.
Some of the receivers for the IBM carbines were made by Auto Ordnance, who had also made the Thompson submachine gun
- Status