Winchester Model 1912

[Ade]

I have a Winchester model 1912, Serial Number 150xxx. My wife inherited it from her father. Now thanks to Clemson, I know how to load it (See here) . Can anyone tell me if it is chambered for 2 3/4 shells?

Thanks,

Andy

 

[TNT]

Well it was made in 1917. If it's a 12ga then there is no need to worry about chamber length because all Model 12's in 12ga were made with the 2 3/4" chamber as standard. It's the early 20 ga guns that were made before 1925 that had the 2 1/2" chambers. After 1925 20ga guns had 2 3/4" chambers as standard.

Early 16ga guns had 2 9/16" chambers until 1927. Then the 16ga was chambered for 2 3/4" as standard.

 

[Ade]

TNT,

Thanks for the reply. Not to be a doubting Thomas, but does that info apply to the 1912 as well as the 12? I found your threads about your two Model 12s while searching, and wouldn't have asked if there wasn't a "19" in front of the 12 on my wife's shotgun. My face ain't worth being concerned about, but my wife wants to shoot it, and hers is.

Also, since you seem to be up to speed on the model 12s (I'm not much of a shotgun guy) can you tell me something about it's value? It's a takedown model, came with a battered leather case, has a funny shaped forend, a black diamond on either side of the handgrip on the stocks, full choke, a recoil pad marked "Hastings", a solid stipled rib, and a bead with a red insert. It's HEAVY. My wife's Uncle tells me that his grandfather special-ordered it from Winchester, and that it has never been altered. I have no interest in selling it, but am curious.

Thanks again,

Andy

 

[Red Label]

From what I understand, the 1912 and the M12 were basically the same thing but we better wait for the others to reply. We still need to know what guage it is though to tell what chamber it has.

 

[Ade]

Red Label,

It's a 12ga. I'm feeling pretty silly for not mentioning that already.

Thanks,

Andy

 

[kudu]

Ade, whatever you do do not sell the the uncle's gun.

From the bit of info in the Blue Book you have a Winchester M12 "BLACK DIAMOND" TRAP gun. It comes in various configerations, as quite a few were special ordered.

A 95% gun is worth $1500 or more depending on add-ons.

This is a classic shotgun!!!

By the way, Welcome to the High Road.

 

[Ade]

Kudu,

Thanks for the welcome and the info.

I have no intention of ever selling this shotgun. It has already been in my wife's family for four generations. I hope to pass it on to one of my kids and make it five. It is my wife's gun. She's not really into guns, so I get to play caretaker (lucky me) until she dies and one of the boys gets it. My father-in-law (the gun's previous owner) was a competitive pistol shooter; he didn't care for shotguns. The gun hasn't been fired for quite some time. I hope to change that shortly, even if it means special ordering a few short shells.

I'm not really interested in shotguns myself. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if it were airborne, a fact which really cooled my enthusiasm for shotgunning. However, mucking about on this forum has got me wanting to try again, embarrassment be damned.

Thanks again.

Andy

 

[kudu]

However, mucking about on this forum has got me wanting to try again, embarrassment be damned.

Good for you, find a trap range and someone willing to show you the ropes on this classic M12 trap gun you have. It may be set up to shoot a high pattern, not unusual for a trap gun.

If it's a 12ga then there is no need to worry about chamber length because all Model 12's in 12ga were made with the 2 3/4" chamber as standard.

No need for special short shells in 12 ga. No reason not to get out there and warm it up. Buy superlight shotgun target loads to begin with, no need to get a sore shoulder or face when starting out. I myself prefer superlight 1oz loads or even 7/8oz reloads. They will bust targets with the best of them.

If any advice is needed on target shooting, just ask the board, or read Dave's 101 threads. We have a plethora of target shooters here.

 

[Ade]

Kudu,

If it's a 12ga then there is no need to worry about chamber length because all Model 12's in 12ga were made with the 2 3/4" chamber as standard.

If it were a Model 12 instead of a Model 1912, I'd be shooting it now. From other readings here on the shotgun forum, the Model 1912 is likely to have a short (< 2.75") chamber. Is there an easy way to determine chamber length without special tools?

Trap ranges are kind of thin on the ground here. Usually, it's just me and a buddy hand throwing clay pigeons. He usually hits most of his, I call it a good day if I hit ONE. Hell, I hit three (out of close to a hundred) with my rifle one day. Which is one more than I've ever hit with my shotgun on one day. Me and airborne tagets don't get along....

I've read most of Dave's threads, and look forward to reading more. Did he ever write that book?

Thanks again,

Andy

 

[MrMurphy]

Not all of us use shotguns for aerial targets...

Mine are all intended for ground bound targets, either two or four legged, all of them hostile.

 

[Ade]

MrMurphy,

I use a shotgun for HD, turkey, and occasionally, deer. If it's supposed to be shot on the wing, I leave it alone. I'm going to sniff around for a trap or skeet range, and if I find one, I'm going to use my wife's "classic shotgun" as a lure to try and strike up a conversation, and then get some free lessons out of someone. If I still can't hit with a shotgun more than 01% of the time after that---I give up.

Take care,

Andy

 

[Red Label]

I'm still looking for my info on the 1912 and M12 designation and I believe thats all it was. The 1912 designation was very early and then they just dropped the "19". If this is the case, your gun will have the 2 3/4 chamber. I do want someone else to verify this though. You can also get the year of manufacture by going to www.armscollectors.com. If you scroll clear down to the left they have a place to type in your serial #.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Like the regulars have said, you're one of the best shotguns ever made.

Re shooting flying stuff.. I've noted that shotguns have built in mission creep. The folks into 3 gun find that shooting little clay frisbees is much fun, and getting one's poultry sans supermarkets has merit and its own attraction.

The folks with the classic doubles and Orvis wardrobes note that Practical shotgunning has value in today's uncertain world, etc.

I dunno how much shooting fast skeet, trap or Sporting doubles aids in target acquisition and neutralization, but it sure can't hurt.

If you're in MD, contact me. I'll be glad to give you Shotgun 101 in person.

A tip. The biggest problem you'll have learning the shotgun is learning NOT to consider it a rifle.

 

[kudu]

Ade,

M12's were designated M1912's from 1912-1919 with serial# 172,000 being about the last of that designation. Then all were known as M12's.

Your gun was made in 1917 according to serial # records,

 

[TNT]

Like Kudu said, Winchester changed the marking "MOD. 1912" to "MODEL 12" in 1919. Your barrel should also have "NICKEL STEEL" written on the barrel. Winchester made a change in 1931 to "Winchester Proof Steel" because of a change in the steel's composition.

I would never trade/sell that Model 1912 because it is a true collector.

 

[TNT]

Does the gun have matching serial numbers? They will be next to each other when you look at the bottom of the gun. Are there any engravings? Thirty inch full choke barrels with matted ribs were standard for twelve gauge Pigeon Guns. Earlier higher grade guns usually had a black diamond inlaid in the grip, and many collectors called these "Black Diamond Grade Guns". Trap, skeet and Pigeon Grade guns can be seen with black diamonds.

There were so many variations of the Model 12 that you could spend an entire lifetime collecting them.

 

[Ade]

Dave,

If you're in MD, contact me. I'll be glad to give you Shotgun 101 in person.

I wish I were, sir. I'd be very happy to take you up on your offer, and buy you a beverage or several of your choice afterward.

A tip. The biggest problem you'll have learning the shotgun is learning NOT to consider it a rifle.

Could you elaborate on that please? It is very similar to something else you wrote on the "why we miss" thread that I picked up on. Something about aiming vs. pointing. Of all the reasons you gave, this stood out for some reason, and I am, more so than anything, a rifleman.



TNT,

Like Kudu said, Winchester changed the marking "MOD. 1912" to "MODEL 12" in 1919. Your barrel should also have "NICKEL STEEL" written on the barrel

Does the gun have matching serial numbers? They will be next to each other when you look at the bottom of the gun. Are there any engravings? Thirty inch full choke barrels with matted ribs were standard for twelve gauge Pigeon Guns. Earlier higher grade guns usually had a black diamond inlaid in the grip, and many collectors called these "Black Diamond Grade Guns". Trap, skeet and Pigeon Grade guns can be seen with black diamonds.

Yep, Nickel Steel. No engraving. The #s match. 30" full choke barrel and matted rib. Black diamonds on the grip. I knew this was a nice gun, but I am finding just how nice now. My sons may have to fight over it, when their Mom is gone. Hell, they may have to fight me if I'm still around then.



Red Label,

The link you gave me (thanks, BTW) tells me the gun was made in 1916.



Kudu,

Thanks for all of the input.



Take care,

Andy

 

[Ade]

I had a thought a little while ago. I used my Mossie to make an empty 2.75" hull. I then assembled the Winchester, opened the action, and carefully pushed the hull into the chamber with my finger. I felt no resistance. The fired hull inserted fully into the chamber. The slide was worked, and the empty ejected just fine. The crimp appeared not to have closed whatsoever.

Also, my wife's uncle was called, and while he's not 100% certain, he is 99.999% certain that the gun is chambered for 2.75" shells.

Comments?

Take care,

Andy

 

[Ade]

I just noticed something else. Both the barrel and the receiver are marked with an oval with a "pwl" in it. The "P" is above and centered on the "W", the "L" is below and centered on the "W". Does anyone know what these markings mean?

Thanks,

Andy

 

[Dave McCracken]

It's easy to tell the rifleshooters on a shotgun range. Besides the frowns caused by hitting little but air, the length of time it takes for them to get a shot off is quite lengthy.

A trap shooter either hits or misses within three seconds. Rifle transplants take time to "make sure". When they do, the swing, if any stops and the target missed behind.

Rifles are aimed. The front sight is in focus, everything is lined up neatly and the trigger pressed.

Shotguns are pointed.,except for some practical use, turkeys, etc. Mostly shotguns are used against fast moving targets. The target HAS to be what's in focus, not the bead. The bead's just there in the periphery.

Secondly, you'll see plenty of folks standing sideways as they fire their rifles offhand. This doesn't work so well if they're tracking a fast moving target. Shotgunners do better behind the weapon, the whole upper body acts as a spring to absorb recoil and swinging to either left or right without binding up's enabled.

 

[TNT]

Those are the Winchester Proof marks. There should be one on the barrel and top of the receiver. To get the full chamber length on a Model 12 the gun must be fully assembled. The chamber can only be correctly measured this way because the shell sits against the chamber ring that is inside the receiver. If it makes you feel better, go find a qualified smith and have it checked out.

 

[Ade]

Dave,

Yep, that sounds like me. I have everything lined up, and the bead in focus when I shoot. Looks real good until I shoot and fragments of ceramic become conspicuous by their absence. Clay pigeons are never safer than when I shoot at them. What's the cure for this? Focus on the targets? Proper stance? Use the force and solve Zen koans while standing on one foot, balancing a ben-wa ball on my nose? Help me Obi-Wan!

TNT,

Thanks for the scoop on the proof marks. I tried the empty with the gun assembled, no problems. If there were a dependable gunsmith within 2 hours of here, I'd visit him.

Thank you both.

Andy

 

[kudu]

Well Ade, If you are anywhere close to northern Indiana I would be happy to help you out with clay targets. I'm sure there are several members that would be helpful if your in their proximity. Keep an eye on their sigs under the names if your shy of telling people where you are.

Happy shooting.

 

[Ade]

Kudu,

Thanks for the offer. I'm nowhere near northern Indiana. Not shy about announcing my location, it just hadn't occured to me to let anyone know where I am. I live in eastern Kentucky, near Paintsville.

Thanks again.

Andy

 

[Dave McCracken]

Koans might help, focussing on the target and working on stance will do more, IMO.Benwas might be distracting.(Tongue firmly inserted in cheek)

Head for your friendly local range. Acquaint yourself with the regulars at the trap range. You'll get lots of advice and probably an offer or two on your shotgun. Ignore the latter and sift the gold out of the former. BA/UU/R and it will come to you...