Winchester Model 43 Questions

[JDinFbg]

QUESTION 1
The clip on my Model 43 only holds 3 rounds. So, 1 in the chamber and 3 in the clip means 4 shots maximum. I've searched online, but I have not seen any references to larger clips for the Model 43. Does anyone know of a source for higher capacity clips for the Model 43?

QUESTION 2
For my Model 43 in 218 Bee, the SAAMI specified maximum cartridge length is 1.680". However, I like to load for a 0.020" bullet 'jump', which gives me the following C.O.A.L. measurements:

Sierra 40 gr. Hornet: 1.770"
Hornady 40 gr. V-MAX: 1.908"
Berger 40 gr. Varmint: 1.867"

These are all too long to feed through the clip. Can anyone explain why the SAAMI specified cartridge length is so short when the bullets could be loaded out much longer? I've gotten decent groups loading for the 0.020" jump, but am concerned that loading to the SAAMI specification may not give good grouping.

 

[WiTom]

I have 2 Model 43 in 218 Bee, and have never seen anyone with a mag bigger than holding 3 rounds. I can't really tell what your asking on question 2, but I load Sierra 22 cal .223 dia, 45 gr. Soft Points, Hornet #1110, over 13.4 grains of H4198, with a COL at 1.680, with a velocity of 2500 fps, and it's more accurate than me, as in scary accurate. I have no problems with bullet loading, and no problem with bullet jumping. Grouping is awesome. Can't speak for those other bullets, because I don't use them. My bees shoot and group the best, with a 45 to 46 grain bullet.

 

[LRDGCO]

https://writingexplained.org/clip-vs-magazine-difference

 

[CoalTrain49]

A garand uses a clip, a 1911 uses a magazine.



Does it matter. It does to some people.

 

[JDinFbg]

I can't really tell what your asking on question 2, . . .

What I was asking was that since the bullets can be seated out to 1.770" to 1.908" (depending on bullet style) and still be 0.020" off the lands of the rifling, why did the SAAMI standard C.O.A.L. end up being 1.680"? Seating at 1.680" leaves a very long bullet "jump", and long bullet jumps are usually not good for accuracy since it allows the bullet to cant sideways before it contacts the rifling. It could be that my rifle has an exceptionally long rifling forcing cone, but the nearly 1/4 inch bullet jump I would have with the Hornady bullet, if seated to SAAMI specs, seems excessive. But, if my Model 43 is like all others produced, why didn't Winchester design the magazine and the action throw to accommodate a longer round so the bullet could be seated much closer to the start of the rifling in the barrel? I hope that clarifies the question.

 

[JDinFbg]

A garand uses a clip, a 1911 uses a magazine.

View attachment 835872

Does it matter. It does to some people.

OK, I stand corrected.

 

[CoalTrain49]

The 218 Bee cartridge is about 80 years old. My guess is bullet technology (V-Max) has changed a bit since the cartridge was introduced. The chamber/mag was probably adequate for ammo produced in 1938.

If I were you I would stick with what works and forget about what Winchester did in 1938. Hornady makes a 45 gr spire point (#2230) that lists a COL of 1.610. That would be my choice for that old rifle.

If you want to use the newer longer bullets maybe you should buy a new rifle.

 

[Jim Watson]

Agree.
Preoccupation with ogive to lands measurements in sporting rifles is a modern fad.
The Bee was developed for lever actions so the OAL had to fit the lifter and the throat was cut to darned sure accommodate the blunt tube magazine bullets.
I don't know what you are shooting that needs magazine capacity; but it looks like 3 is it. Or one, if you want to load spitzers seated out.

 

[JDinFbg]

Agree.
Preoccupation with ogive to lands measurements in sporting rifles is a modern fad.
The Bee was developed for lever actions so the OAL had to fit the lifter and the throat was cut to darned sure accommodate the blunt tube magazine bullets.
I don't know what you are shooting that needs magazine capacity; but it looks like 3 is it. Or one, if you want to load spitzers seated out.

I'm a former benchrest shooter, so keeping bullet jump to a minimum has always been my goal and has typically produced the smallest groups. My tests so far have been with bullets loaded out, fed individually, and I've gotten some pretty good results (0.788" to 0.910" groups). I have yet to test what the bullets will do when seated deep enough to feed through the magazine. Some rifles do well with a large bullet jump, others do not. I plan to find out how mine likes them. My interest in a higher capacity magazine is just to minimize how often I would have to stop to shove in more rounds. With only a 3 round capacity, it would take more time reloading the magazine than it would to just feed rounds manually.

 

[Offfhand]

The OP asks a good question and there is a simple and logical answer: The .218 Bee was introduced by Winchester in 1938 for their Model 65 lever action rifle. Note: The Bee was designed for a LEVER ACTION rifle and the cartridge dimensions, specifically overall length, were to ensure reliable feed function in the rifle's mechanism. They knew what they were doing. The originator of a commercial caliber, in this case Winchester, establishes published dimensions of a cartridge. And that's how they come to be. Winchester didn't introduce the Model 43 until 1949, offering it with the Bee and three other calibers, which for that rifle the Bee was just a chambering of convenience with no particular consideration of magazine length, especially handloads. Obviously, handloaders are free to load the Bee or any other caliber at whatever length they damn well please with no regard to published length.