Winchester Mystery?

[MistaSmith]

Hey Everyone,

I've just recently joined the forum and my experience here has been great, so i was wondering if you guys could help me with a mystery here...

I've been looking to get my first rifle recently, and today my dad found HIS rifle; a pump action winchester .22
It's a beautiful rifle, hexagonal barrel and smooth action, (never seen it before though? Looks almost like the slide on a beretta 92fs?)
I think that it's a model 1890, but i was wondering if it is still a common rifle, the value, and anything else useful. I'm definitly not selling it, just wondering.
The other strange thing that i noticed is that the reciever is stamped for .22 short, not .22LR
Is that ammunition still commonly sold? I've never personally seen any.
Tomorrow i'll post the serial/model number as well as some pictures, and thanks in advance for your comments/help!

All around very sexy gun

 

[Al Thompson]

Lots of .22 Short ammo sold. I'm not a Winchester guy, but the older rifles really shot well. You have a very neat rifle.

No precise clue on value, but probably around the 1K mark. At least around here.

 

[BrocLuno]

Something like this ought to show off what the old girl can do: http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/2364

 

[Jim Watson]

Never saw a Winchester (or darned few others) with a hexagonal barrel. Try to find eight flats.

 

[shiftyer1]

lol maybe it's octagon? .22 shorts should be easy to find, check out walmart. Thats a decent rifle, I don't know the specifics but I know they're not a dime a dozen and people like them.

 

[SeekHer]

Check Collector's Firearms Winchester Rimfire site for the various models including pumps
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/show_inventory.php?catID=14&subcatID=182

and The Winchester Arms Collectors Association
http://www.winchestercollector.org/

Because there were more then one model that had an octagonal barrel like the Models 1906 (Cheapened 1890), 61, 62, 62A, .

Depending on S/N, variant and condition they can fetch $600 to $1,000 at auction...Does it have a large round nob on the side of the receiver, then it would be a takedown version and they usually fetch more.

Guns International pricing
http://www.gunsinternational.com/Winchester-Pump-Pre-64-Rifles.cfm?cat_id=399

If it is the M1890 then it was a J M Browning design while later models either copied it with slight modifications or designed a new one altogether...I've never owned one as I'm not partial to pump action guns of any kind but I've got cousins and uncles who have had them from the beginning of the 20th century (they'd been passed down)...Smooth action, accurate for the construction, quite light weight and can store a lot of ammo in the tube...The S/L/LR models you can mix them up in the tube and the guns will not bulk if a different sized case comes out.

The .22 Short models were called "gallery guns"--what all the carnival shooting gallery used to fleece the rubes...DO NOT shoot anything else in them, ONLY .22 Short which are still quite readily available.
Wiki on the Model 1890:
The Model 1890 was a slide action, top ejecting rifle with an 18 inch magazine tube under the barrel. It had a 24 inch octagonal barrel, a plain walnut stock, and an overall weight of approximately 6 lbs.
Calibers for the rifle include .22 Short, .22 Long, .22 Long Rifle, .22 Winchester Rimfire. The Model 1890 will only fire the round specific to that gun (e.g. a Model 1890 stamped ".22 Short" on the barrel will not fire .22 Long, .22 Long Rifle, or .22 WRF; despite there being other 1890's chambered in those calibers). The .22 Long Rifle version was added in 1919.

 

[MistaSmith]

Excellent info guys,

Now that i checked it is actually an octagonal barrel, sorry for the confusion. I never really counted before, just gave it a look.

Haha, thanks for the ammo info, but i would never consider firing anything that isn't stamped into the reciever.

Now, do you have any ideas/tips for restoring it? I'd like to return it to the best condition possible, even though i don't want to sell it. John Browning is something of a idol to me, and anything that he hand a hand it i would love to own. Now that i do, I want to keep it in excellent condition.

 

[natman]

Now, do you have any ideas/tips for restoring it? I'd like to return it to the best condition possible...

Don't "restore" it. Give the metal a wipe down with an oily rag. If there's light patches of surface rust (not an overall patina), maybe a gentle rubbing with 0000 (4 zero) steel wool with lots of oil.

Give the wood a wipe with Scott's Liquid Gold. Let the wood take as much as it wants, then wipe off the excess. Keep the oily rags in an airtight container.

Other than that, clean it, lube it, shoot it.

 

[MistaSmith]

Photos

Hey guys,

Thanks for the cleaning advice. I just discovered that the rifle is the takedown style, increasing it's value (i think)?
Here's some photos;

 

[MistaSmith]

Serial #'s

Here's the photos for the stock and reciever, plus the stamped info:

 

[airedaleman]

Do NOT shoot high velocity .22 shorts in that nice old rifle. Use only standard velocity shorts; this rifle was manufactured well before modern ammunition was intoduced.

 

[MistaSmith]

any ideas on the date/price exactly?

 

[rcmodel]

Hi-Speed shorts will not hurt an 1890 in the least.

That action is probably strong enough for a .22 Hornet center-fire if it would fit through the mag tube!!

The exact same action with a different cartridge lifter was chambered in .22 WRF at about the same time.
Which was the grand-daddy of the .22 Magnum.

rc

 

[Jim Watson]

Made early 1928 according to Proofhouse.com
Blue Book says $300-$400, the pictures are not good enough to tell condition. Percentage of blue remaining on the receiver is the most important thing in book value.
Takedowns are more common, not less.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

Anybody else notice the serial numbers do not match?

 

[planetmobius]

My first rifle was also a Winchester 1890 made in 1913. Dad found it in the attic of a house his father built. I've been shooting high velocity 22 lr out of it for 30 years without a hitch. Taken lots of squirrels, rabbits and a few coons. Don't restore it. Just keep it clean and oiled and your kids will pass it on to theirs. Nice heirloom. Forget about the numbers not matching. I'vre seen these in local gun shops in fair to good condition for over $800.00 FYI.

 

[BrocLuno]

OBTW - get it out of that foam lined case. bad for rusting unless you are only out for the day.

 

[MistaSmith]

Really? Can anyone else confirm that foam is bad for rust?

 

[natman]

Me!

The foam can draw moisture from the air (it is a big sponge after all) and cause rust. If you work in a gunshop in an area with any humidity at all you'll see it all the time.

Foam cases are for transporting guns, not storing them.

 

[bhk]

Never store in a foam case for the reasons stated. A good silicon gun sock will be much better if you are not going to put it in a safe.

 

[bigedp51]

Look down the barrel and check to see if it is rifled, many of these .22 were used as gallery rifles on boardwalks, carnivals, etc. Some were smooth bores to reduce the chance of scoring and winning the Kewpie doll. (prize)

I think they were called Gallery Specials because the normal rifle would accept short, long and long rifle ammunition.

 

[Float Pilot]

The fact that two serial numbers are present also might tend to point towards carnival or fair-ground usage. They would break down the 8 or ten rifles and head to the next town. It would be very easy to end up with parts guns after a few years.

Approx 2500 Smooth bore shot rifles manufactured , of that number @ 350 with counter bored barrels . If you had a true serial number matching smooth bore which was factory made, it would really be worth something. But carnival guns were often semi-smooth bored by the yahoos working at the carnival or fair.

 

[bergmen]

Really? Can anyone else confirm that foam is bad for rust?

Absolutely not in my case. I've stored my steel receiver semi-auto shotgun in a foam lined case for decades. Let me know how terrible it looks today:

BTW, this shotgun is more than 50 years old.

Dan

 

[pump .22s]

MistaSmith...that's a nice looking old gun. After looking over your pics I think I can tell you the following:

Your gun is most likely a combo of two different guns since the receiver has one serial number and the tang has a different serial number. This is not uncommon with these old guns. There were well over 800,000 of them made and over the years, and for various reasons, combining the barrel/receiver assembly with the stock/trigger assembly of a different gun frequently happened. This does not affect function but does reduce reduce collector value.

Yours is a third model...the receiver was made about 1926, and the tang assembly was made about 1920. The gun was introduced in 1890 - called the 1st model - and originally was not a take down...these are most valuable. Along about 1892, Winchester changed them to a take down model...called the 2nd model. In 1906, further changes were made and this one ... the most common, is called the 3rd model.

These guns have strong actions...don't worry about shooting high speed shorts in them. I have a couple that I shoot regularly. As a side note, most of these were chambered for short and long calibers. It wasn't until late in production that they began chambering them for the long rifle....only about 10% total were chambered for long rifle. Shorts are available at my local WalMart...so they are still fairly common.

The 1906 is basically the same gun with a cheaper stock and shorter round 20" barrel. The Model 62 also but with a 23" barrel. Many parts will interchange between these guns.

If you have a good clean bore with strong rifling, the gun should still shoot well. A lot of these guns fired the corrosive ammo commonly used back in the day, and consequently frequently have poor bores. I have seen them that looked like a smooth bore when viewed down the bore but were simply shot/corroded out... Any gun that is a smooth bore will have that stamped on the barrel....yours is not.

I can't examine your gun first hand, but if in good mechanical condition with good bore, tight stocks and decently good finish, it should be worth in the $350 - $500 range...ballpark. I recently purchased one in original condition with a very good bore and about 80% finish for $500, but I thought I got a good deal.

As has been suggested, if everything checks out, give her a good cleaning, shoot, and enjoy.

 

[Bojangles7]

MistaSmith, I have the same rifle, in WRF though, and I bought a manual from here that helped a lot with the take down.

http://www.homesteadfirearms.com/homesteadfirearms/appraisalcart/pid_30.htm

I was a little nervous about breaking into an older rifle like this without some sort of guide. Mine hadn't been shot in probably 50 years so I completely broke it down and spend a few hours cleaning it. Put back together and took it to the range = . I hadn't shot a .22 in so long I wasn't even sure it was working, since there's pretty much zero recoil. Shot without a hiccup and now it's one of my most prized possessions. It has been in my family for four generations.