Winchester trench gun?

[Prophet]

I recently came across a Winchester 1897 shotgun, a plain jane version of the trench gun sans the heat shield and bayonet mount.

I have two questions;

-would modern ammunition run safely and reliably in this gun?

-before the pump arm could be pumped back, it had to be forced forward just a hair until something clicked, then it could be pumped back. Is this normal operation or is something sticking?

Thanks!

 

[highorder]

Yes and yes.

The 1897, if in good working condition, will happily digest most of today's loads.

The pump action quirk is a Winchester thing. (If I understand you correctly.)

Pics would make this thread!

 

[Prophet]

Thanks highorder, I wish I had pics but the gun is in a local gunshop where I have a shotgun of my own on consignment. I'm a nostalgic person so this gun really appealed to me. It definitely showed it's age, but the lockup was still very tight. No doubt I would have to tear it down and clean/lube it if I bought it (which I'm already accustomed to doing with new purchases anyway).

Another question; does anyone know if spare parts for the Norinco copies would interchange with parts from the Winchester? I'm a nostalgic person but I'm also a practical person; I wouldn't have a gun around that I couldn't use for fear of breaking something. If something would ever break or need to be replaced I would like to be able to do so without paying a fortune, though I doubt there is much that can go wrong with these guns... the one I handled seemed to be built like a tank.

 

[ReloaderFred]

It sounds like you're looking at a standard Riot Model 97, rather than a Trench Model, if it doesn't have the heat shield and bayonet lug. Look on the barrel and see what's stamped where the barrel meets the receiver. It should say what the choke was on the original configuration. If it says Full or Modified, it's a cut down gun, not an original Riot gun. Also, is this a solid frame or take down gun?

Depending on the age of the Model 97, it may be chambered for 2 5/8" shells with roll crimps, or 2 3/4" shells with roll crimps. If chambered for either of those, then it would need to be rechambered, or at least the forcing cone relieved. Only the later guns were chambered for star crimped 2 3/4" shells.

The early Model 97's, at least into the early 1930's, had forcing cones that were all over the place in length. They were apparently chambered by hand, and it depended on who chambered it and how industrious he was at the time. Some of mine were short chambered and some weren't.

You can tell if your gun needs to be rechambered two ways. The first, and best, is to take it to a gunsmith who works on shotguns and have him check the chamber with a gauge. Lacking this, you can fire a low power target load in it and check the mouth of the case. If the edges of the star crimp are shredded or beat up, then the chamber is too short and the mouth of the case is into the forcing cone and the shot is causing the damage to the case mouth, which also increases pressures. Increased pressure isn't a good thing in a gun around 100 years old.

For the most part, the Chinese parts won't interchange with an original Model 97 Winchester. The Chinese use a mixture of Metric and SAE parts in their guns. There have been efforts to get them to produce parts for original guns, but some parts just don't convert readily to Metric, i.e.: a 4x54 screw. The wood may interchange, but that's just a guess, since domestic replacement wood is available.

It's completely normal with the Model 97 to have to move the forearm slightly forward to open the action on an unfired gun with the hammer down. This tells you everything is matching up correctly. You can also push the action release button on the right side of the receiver when the hammer is back, which will allow you to open the action without lowering the hammer.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Prophet]

Thanks Fred, that does help! So once the gun has been fired the action will release automatically without being required to pump forward a bit?

I am unaware of whether it is a take-down or solid frame. It was definitely an older model, I'm going to guess 1930s. The shop at which this gun is on consignment also has a gunsmithing shop in the back, I might have to ask them about what they can do as far as rechamberings are concerned.

 

[ReloaderFred]

Prophet,

That's correct, when the gun fires, the slide will open without any other movement, except to the rear. Also be aware that the Model 97 is capable of slam firing, which means if you keep the trigger pulled and work the action, once the action closes, the hammer will fall and fire the next round. You have to release the trigger each time you work the action or it will go off when the action is closed on a live round.

There are a couple of ways to tell if it's a solid frame or take down model. The easiest is to look at the top of the magazine tube, where it is attached to the barrel. If there is a short rod that is slightly longer than the width of the magazine tube that goes through the end of the tube and cap at a right angle, and looks like it can be pushed through the tube, then it's a take down gun. By pushing that small rod all the way to the left, you can unscrew the magazine tube and take the gun down into two assemblies. It can be a little tricky if you've never done it, but once you get the hang of it, it's pretty straight forward.

On a solid gun, there is just a simple attachment for the magazine tube.

Another area to look at is where the barrel attaches to the frame. On a solid frame gun, the barrel just goes straight into the frame, but on a take down gun, there is a wider area here, with a band that holds the magazine tube and barrel that twists into the frame.

If you can get the serial number, I can tell you what year the gun was made. My wife shoots one made in 1899. The gun that I used to use was made in 1912, but the one I'm using now is a newer gun, made in 1954. We have 7 of them at the present time, two solid frame and the rest take down guns. One is a Black Diamond Trap, but doesn't have a matching bolt.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[ReloaderFred]

As for rechambering, be aware that take down guns are very easy to rechamber, but solid frame guns are rather difficult. Modern chamber reamers won't fit in the action, and they either have to grind down a reamer to fit, or remove the barrel and then rechamber it. With a 100+ year old gun, that can be rather tricky.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Prophet]

It does indeed, thank you! My main reasoning for wanting one of these things is the fact that it has a hammer, and I prefer firearms with hammers. Have you handled any of the reproduction Norincos? Do they hold up well to the originals? If I purchase one of these it will be used quite often, for hunting (mostly crows and squirrels) target practice, and as an HD gun so I want to make sure that I'm getting something that can be used less as a curio item and more as something that I can use while still enjoying the platform (and the nostalgia, in the case of the Winchester).

 

[ReloaderFred]

I used a Norinco Model 97 for SASS matches for about a year and a half before I started buying original Winchesters. That gun held up well, and is still going. It was a borrowed gun and the owner uses it as a backup to his original Winchester. The early Norinco guns were pretty shabby, so if you consider buying one, make sure it's a later import.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Prophet]

Is there anything in particular I should look for on either of these shotguns; signs that something may be wrong or that the quality control was less-than-stellar when that particular shotgun was manufactured? I'd hate to end up with a lemon regardless of whichever one I'd decide to go with. And next time I stop into the gun shop (probably sometime this week or the next to check in on my consigned gun) I'll check the serial number and let you have it so I can get an idea at it's age.

Thanks Fred!

 

[ReloaderFred]

The first Norinco guns had painted wood for stocks, and metal to wood fit was terrible. The metal was soft and wouldn't hold up and the machining was sloppy.

Later guns were better made, and at one time Norinco stopped making them. When they started up again for the last runs, the quality was much better.

As for me, I'd really rather have an original Winchester, but if you'd like to spend less money and get a new gun, I can direct you to a dealer's site that will get you the best deal and he'll make sure the gun functions before he sends it to your dealer. Just let me know.

On a used gun, there are several things to look for. The first is the chambering, along with the general mechanical condition. I don't worry too much about a gun with little bluing left, if the gun is mechanically sound and the price is right. Check the bore and make sure it's not severely pitted or rusted. Make sure the action locks up tight and will feed a round from the magazine. The lug on the end of the action rod gets worn and this can cause problems.

If it's a take down gun, make sure the two assemblies fit tight to each other. You can tell by grasping each one and twisting or shaking. If there is any play at all, check to make sure the frame isn't cracked from being shot while loose. You generally have to take the two assemblies apart to see if the frame is cracked. There is an adjustment cog on the barrel assembly for taking up slack between the two assemblies. You'll want to see if there is any adjustment left on the cog.

The buttstocks are often cracked, but can be repaired. Forearms are also sometimes cracked. There were two types of forearms used on the Model 97. The very early ones used three very short screws to hold the wood to the action tube. These screws are often missing, since they only hold with about one thread. These can be a problem and have to be ground to fit, if replaced. The newer forearms are held with a ring. These are in two configurations, with the later forearms being fatter than the earlier ones. I much prefer the newer configuration, held in place by a ring.

There are some other areas to look at, but they're about the same as you would look for on any used gun. Missing screws, small parts, etc.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[JNewell]

One other important point to check on an 1897 or 1912. Make sure it will not fire BEFORE the bolt has fully locked up. You can do this AFTER MAKING SURE THE GUN IS UNLOADED and REPEATING THAT PROCEDURE AGAIN and then with the safety 'off' pulling the slide all the way back as if you just ejected a shell. Then, with the trigger pulled slowly, push the slide ahead slowly and take note whether it fires (goes 'click') before the bolt is fully locked in place. The problem with the lack of a trigger/sear disconnector is that if the gun gets out of time it will fire when the slide is OPEN if you cycle the action whle pulling the trigger. Firing a 12-gauge shotgun with an unlocked bolt could ruin several people's day and many thereafter. :-(

 

[ReloaderFred]

Yes, that's another thing to watch for, just like any other used gun. Don't look for a safety on the Model 97, though, since they don't have one. The Model 97 will fire if the trigger is held back and the slide moved forward, which is called "slam firing".

The condition JNewell is referring to is known as "firing out of battery", which can happen with any firearm, and will cause damage to both the firearm and shooter, though sometimes the shooter gets lucky and only blows pieces off the firearm, without damage to him/her self.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[PT1911]

I have a Norinco 97 and LOVE IT... my favorite shotgun probably... Important note if you are unfamiliar with this gun.... BE CAREFUL when you cycle the action as you can take A LOT of skin off the knuckle of your thumb... if you cycle the action while the gun is shouldered, no worries, but a lot of people tend to drop the gun slightly from the shoulder when cycling and that is where the 97 will literally BITE YOU!!!!...



on an unrelated note, I wish there were more pumps with hammers, it is a cool configuration that I much prefer to the internal firing pin system of other pumps.... not sure what it is about the 97 but the moment I saw one in "No Country for Old Men" I had to have one...

 

[Prophet]

Thanks everyone for the helpful advice! Another Norinco-Winchester comparison; considering the Norinco is a newer shotgun, is there much (if any) difference in metallurgy between the two?

Yeah, I wish there were more shotguns with hammers too. The shotgun is pretty much my favorite gun, but I've always been just a little paranoid about not being able to see what's going on in there... and relying only on a safety and sear to keep things in place while I'm out and about with a loaded chamber. I think a hammered model would be a much better match-up for my Marlin 30-30 than my other shotgun was.

 

[JNewell]

Thanks, Fred, had forgotten about the (lack of) a manual safety on the 97. I think the risk of firing out of battery is greater with the 1897/1912 (and similar shotguns?) that have no disconnector, since merely holding the trigger to the rear while cycling the action will fire the gun.