How often were bayonets fixed in WWII Korea and Vietnam.
More often than those that had to do it want to remember. But in fact not often. Any unit that has been over run, in any war, understands that. Often it happens to small units that either can not get resupplied or runs out of ammunition before it runs out of bad guys, or there are just to many bad guys to begin with.
Some of our enemies over the years used tactics that were intended to overwhelm American forces with mass infantry attacks. RE: Japanese, Chinese, and the NVA. They all used Human Wave attacks in varying ways, and often the bayonet came into play, on both sides. Those type of attacks tend to find the Shotgun more usable too(the shotgun is an up close personal weapon, in the military it is not used much over 30 yards (the military only issue‘s 00 buck, and in my day they were all brass shells, with a very heavily waxed paper wad holding it all in). Things tend to get up close and personal. Hence the shotgun and bayonets get some work.
Not often, but when you need it, often nothing else will do. Also when the shotgun and bayonet do get applied, usually all else didn’t stop the bad guys, and the reason really doesn’t matter.
In places like Iraq, vehicles are/were generally available, supply often is not as MUCH of an issue. Also for the most part, the Black Hawk down incident in Mogadishu, In Urban the environment generally mitigates against massed attacks, the buildings/structures tend to channel attacks, and the defenders tend to have a big edge, with many and perfuse types of defensive terrain and structures.
On the flip side, I think we will find that our forces will run into situations were they will be over run more often in Afghanistan.
But the bayonet attachment, to me, seems like it would get in the way.
It does, except when you need it. I don’t think the infantry will complain about it. Support troops might.
Fire 200 rounds of 12 ga as fast as you can, then grab the barrel of a 12 ga pump, and crawl 100 yards, how does the heat shield sound now? The guns used in WWII (and BTW Vietnam) were carry overs from WWI where masses of men were still launched at fortified positions. With 5 round magazines and CQC ranges measured in feet, I suppose the bayonet came in handy. As RC pointed out a thin shotgun barrel is easily dented, the shield helps protect it.
If the shotgun should fire more than 50 rounds in any one fight, I would be very surprised. I have never seen the “heat” of a shotgun barrel being a problem in action, although it may get hot. Just like the hand gun, in actual combat doesn‘t usually shoot that many rounds. That heat is a major problem
Of course almost every other shoulder weapon does have a hand guard, so came the heat shield.
My take is that if you are going to take a shotgun into battle the heat shield makes a lot of sense. And if the bayonet lug attachment doesn't impede the gun's usefulness the lug is a good thing to have just in case it's needed.
BINGO!
At the end of WWI: Didn't the Germans try to have shotguns banned from combat use?
NO. They did threaten to shoot any Americans captured with one. They considered the shotgun as inhumane. We made a counter threat, I don’t remember what it was, but the problem went away. It was near the end of the war, as American troops did not see action in an large numbers until the last year, 1918. (We were the only ones using them in the trenches. The Europeans did not in general care for or use the Pump or Auto shotgun for sport either. The European answer to trench warfare was the submachine gun, not really evolved yet, but perfected for the Second World War.)
Some time ago I read an incident of a battalion or so size of American MP’s IIRC, that were cut off. Their primary long arm was the shotgun. The German assault units were cut to ribbons when ever they tried to close with the American unit. I believe that action is what triggered the German threat. But I really don’t remember the details, only the general story.
While that may be true, if you ever have to use a bayonet in combat, I doubt re-zeroing your weapon is of immediate concern.
Shotguns in the military are area weapons, not point weapons that is what the Rifle is for. Not withstanding that, in today’s military the shotgun’s primary mission has been relegated to breeching duty. I don’t doubt some guys used it, but I don’t think as often as we did.
Maybe some of our current Grunts can fill us in. I would like to know.
John, maybe not immediate, but using an accessory that compromises longer range accuracy is not a great idea.
The shotgun is not a long range weapon, 25-30 yards and in. The military shotgun has neither the ammunition or sights to be effectively used further. If you need more range and accuracy, that is what rifles and carbines are used for, not shotguns.
It is the Police that needed to stretch the usefulness of the shotgun, for many years their only shoulder weapon, and still today by Departments and agencies commanded by not very knowledgeable leaders. Not the military. Except for up close, the shotgun is much out classed by a good carbine or rifle even when loaded with an relatively anemic cartridge.
I never saw any issued shotgun ammo other than 00 buck.
We had a few around in VN.
Me too. The all brass shell’s I described above.
Go figure.
Fred
