Wisconsin ... Will Seiler Case Encourage New Views on CCW?

[Jeff Thomas]

I don't usually pick on other states ... it's a "free" country, and folks should be able to choose where they live, and the laws that apply. And, I'm not very familiar with WI, but I note from packing.org as well as comments on The High Road that it is apparently a fairly anti-self defense state. I wonder if Ms. Seiler's challenges might encourage some to more seriously consider "allowing" innocents the fundamental human right of self defense?

Regards from TX

FoxNews - Seiler Case
MADISON, Wis. — Audrey Seiler's (search) parents were always confident that the University of Wisconsin (search) student would be found after her baffling disappearance from her off-campus apartment last weekend.

The 20-year-old sophomore was located alive and healthy Wednesday in a marsh near campus, four days after she vanished with no coat or purse.

"Audrey is doing well. She's happy to be back," said her father, Keith Seiler. "Needless to say she's thrilled to be home again with her family and friends."

Police said Wednesday night that Seiler had been abducted at knifepoint, but that the abductor had not been found.

Officer Shannon Blackamore said Seiler did not know the abductor. He also said there was an indication or threat of a gun, though Seiler never saw the weapon.

"Audrey reports she was not free to leave and was not injured," Blackamore said.

Assistant Police Chief Noble Wray declined to answer questions about how Seiler got free.

Seiler was treated at a hospital and released after being there less than six hours. Dr. Philip Schultz said Seiler was cold and dehydrated and had muscle aches.

Her discovery capped an intense search in which dozens of volunteers from Seiler's hometown slogged through marshes and woods around campus and investigators scoured phone records and apartments for any clue into the disappearance. Police used dogs, planes and boats in the search.

Officer Larry Kamholz said Seiler was found after an employee at a nearby office building called police to report what she thought was a body in the marsh less than two miles from Seiler's off-campus apartment.

Officers with weapons drawn searched the heavy brush, and a helicopter with heat sensors was brought in to aid the search.

Rejoicing residents took to the streets to tear down missing-person posters in Seiler's hometown of Rockford, Minn., a small town about 30 miles west of the Twin Cities.

"Right now it's just an unbelievable feeling," said Roman Pierskalla, principal of the high school in Rockford. "Today, the prayers of everyone in the Rockford community have been answered."

Later, a candlelight vigil turned into a celebration; a local Domino's sent free pizzas and the Rockford Fire Department brought a ladder truck that hoisted an American flag.

Seiler was last seen on a surveillance tape from her apartment building early Saturday. She apparently left without her car or any personal belongings, and her door was left open.

Seiler was involved in another mysterious incident Feb. 1, when she was struck from behind by an unknown assailant and knocked unconscious, police said. She was then moved about a block from where she was attacked but was not sexually assaulted or robbed, authorities said.

Police are unsure if there was any connection between the attack and Seiler's disappearance, which had been a shock to people in Rockford, even though it happened so far away.

"A lot of people out here sleep with their doors open," said Nate Rivera, a supervisor at the Phillips 66 Quick Shop. "That's probably not going to happen much longer, even though it happened in Wisconsin."

 

[AJ Dual]

WI was on the bleeding edge of getting CCW this year. You could search up the blow-by-blow threads from earlier this year here in L&P.

But short form of the story is it failed by one vote on a veto override of our govenor. The Democratic Assemblyman was originally a very pro-CCW co-sponsor of the bill in his house, and even wrote a very strong opinion piece in a local newspaper that served his nortwoods/rural district lambasting the "blood in the streets" cries of the antis.

He stated that he made his "courageous" decision to switch because he felt that not letting his party's govenor suffer the first veto override in 20-odd years was more important. i.e. He was bought off by the Govenor to flip his vote in exchange for a cush six-figure salary state job when he gets voted out over his switch next fall.

Yesterday I was listening to a local conservative talk-show and while discussing Audrey's abduction, a caller opined that perhaps she'd have been OK had WI's CCW bill passed. I was pleased with this comment of course, but even more so that the caller sounded like she was probably an African-American woman. A combination of two demographics that are more prone to anti-CCW sentiment.

So I hope you're right, and this news can help.

 

[sturmruger]

It might have helped, but not all college age women are that into self defense.

The other way to look at it is what if we did have CCW and this guy had a permit That would be have been a serious S Storm.

 

[longeyes]

The other way to look at it is what if we did have CCW and this guy had a permit

Possible, sure, but for some reason it doesn't seem to work out that way, does it? Isn't the crime rate among CCW permit holders minuscule?

 

[Jeff Thomas]

Yes, the crime rate among CCW holders is tiny. Check out the Violence Policy Center's rhetoric on this subject. They tried to make a big deal out of the arrest figures for TX CHL holders ... big flaw as I recall was they looked at arrests, not convictions, and they didn't look at rates, just the raw numbers. When you looked hard at the data it became clear that you are right ... CHL / CCW holders are statistically much more law abiding than the general public. No surprise there. How many gangbangers are willing to take the training, pay the fees, deal with LEO's, and especially ... be fingerprinted and background-checked? Zippo.

Glad to hear WI was close to recognizing this fundamental human right ... good luck in the future. Perhaps some High Road WI members might be willing to tout Mothers Arms up there?

Regards from TX

 

[DonP]

Not to be a party pooper but ...

This whole case seems to be rapidly growing hair in strange places.

Apparently the last time, when she was hit and supposedly dragged a block away there was no real follow up by the police.

This time she left her apartment (on CCTV camera) at 2:45 in the AM voluntarily and was "found" yesterday within a mile or less of the search HQ. Through the whole thing the parents acted kind of strange IMHO too.

I know I'm getting sceptical in my dotage, but this has the feel of a self created event and may turn out to be a cry for help on the part of the young lady involved. I don't think it makes any kind of argument in favor of CCW.

 

[AJ Dual]

The VPC figures were even more padded by trying to claim simple license revocations, not just arrests.

The lions share of revocations were for traffic and parking tickets, child support disputes, late taxes etc. All the stuff you could lose your hunting license over.

Texas DPS was so peeved by VPC's mischaracterization of the CCW revocations, that they posted their own study refuting them. First and only real instance of a government body smacking back at the antis that I'm aware of.

Hopefully WI will flip a few more legislative seats to pro-gun candidates this coming election, the conservative voter base is also very sore over some property tax issues that failed override by one flip vote as well, so with any luck, we can pass a CCW bill and override the govenor in '05. With a few less anti legislators, we stand a good chance of actually passing a better bill with fewer compromises to boot.

The original bill was actually one of the best in the nation (Save VT and AK) before it got compromised down to something more average. We had some unheard of CCW protections in the beginning:

- Liability for employers who banned CCW, and a permited employee who complied and worked unarmed was harmed in a crime.

- School parking lots were ok for carry when picking up and dropping off children.

- Resturaunt and bar carry was ok, you could even drink, the reasonable limitation was that you couldn't be "drunk", the same .08 BAC standard as a DUI.

- Big Texas style .30-06 sinage requirements to ban CCW etc.

- Violation of sinage by CCW'er was only treaspassing after being asked to leave etc.

 

[sturmruger]

I have had a funny feeling about this whole deal as well. I have never heard of someone going down stairs to meet their abductor. Of course if he is a younger guy he might have said something like. "I think I saw the guy that hit you in the head last week" They are a whole host of things a guy could tell a girl to meet him at the entrance to her building. I am hoping we get to the bottom of this whole thing really soon.

 

[PATH]

The whole Seiler incident seems a bit odd. I want to hear the whole story. As for CCW, throw the antis out of office!

 

[cracked butt]

DonP- I've had the same feelings about the events- something is not quite right and I don't think we are getting the whole story.

 

[Jeff Thomas]

The story does give the appearance of unraveling. We'll see in the next few days. Note:

http://www.madison.com/wisconsinstatejournal/local/71475.php

Police: No reason to think Seiler story made up
11:54 PM 4/01/04
Patricia Simms, Barry Adams and Ed Treleven Wisconsin State Journal

Tight-lipped Madison police Thursday said they were continuing to hunt for a big-nosed white man in the abduction of 20-year-old Audrey Seiler despite inconsistencies in her story. <

Buffeted by a full-blown media circus, Noble Wray, the acting police chief, released a composite sketch of the man Seiler said abducted her at knifepoint from The Regent apartments near campus early Saturday. <

But Wray refused to disclose any details from police interviews with the UW-Madison student, who was found unharmed in a marshy area on Madison's South Side Wednesday. <

"Like in any other major investigation, there may be inconsistencies," Wray said at a press conference at Monona Terrace. "We are continuing forward with this investigation. It is not our role to speculate on the outcome. <

"We will continue the investigation. I repeat. We will continue the investigation to identify the facts in the reported abduction." <

The sketch shows a man with a long chin in a stocking cap. He is described as stocky and about 5 feet 10 in his late 20s to early 30s. Seiler said the man has a large nose. <

Wray advised Madison residents to take normal safety precautions and urged them to contact the police with information about the disappearance. He did not say the public was at risk. <

Earlier in the day, Madison police spokesman Officer Larry Kamholz told reporters they had no evidence to indicate that Seiler wasn't truthful. <

"We have no reason to believe Audrey's story is made up," Kamholz said. "Until we have something that proves otherwise, we're still in the line of treating this as an abduction." <

About 24 hours earlier and about two hours before Seiler was found, Kamholz said a lack of evidence in an abduction is highly unusual. <

"There's always some evidence that we can cling onto almost instantaneously that'll help us in the investigation," Kamholz said. "We don't have any of that evidence which makes this case very unique. There's always something for us to dig into. But there is absolutely nothing." <

Seiler's parents, Stephanie and Keith Seiler, said Tuesday their daughter had no history of drug or alcohol addiction, depression or other form of mental illness. <

Stephanie Seiler said her daughter called March 24 to say she had the stomach flu but was still going to classes and studying. <

On Friday, Seiler left her parents a message saying her car wouldn't start. She called an auto service, but by the time a wrecker arrived, the car, which had a moisture problem, had dried out and was working. <

Seiler was scheduled to meet friends Saturday afternoon to watch movies but she never showed up, which sparked the initial concerns. <

Stephanie Seiler said her daughter had spent the spring break from the university at home in Rockford, Minn., reading much of the time. <

"She was very well rested and relaxed," Stephanie Seiler said. "She really did nothing over spring break. She saw a few friends but not a lot because all of their spring breaks are at different times from hers. She pretty much stayed home." <

Police seemed to be focusing much of their evidence collection Thursday near a stand of pine trees on the north side of the marshy area near where Seiler was found. Bloodhounds from Illinois and part of the North American Search Dog Network were also used to search the area, roughly bounded by John Nolen Drive, Rimrock Road and the Beltline. But police would not say if anything was found. <

"We're still searching for evidence, whatever we can find," said Lt. Wayne Strong. "Unless something else develops, we'll be focused on this area." <

Police also asked officials at the Department of Revenue on the south side of the wetland for images from security cameras, but officials there said the only cameras were on the opposite side of the building from the marshy area. <

The Revenue Department employee who spotted Seiler "requests that the media do not contact her at home or place of work as she would like to lead a normal life," a department press release said. <

Department of Revenue spokeswoman Eva Robelia also said police asked state officials not to talk to the press. "Police asked that we not comment just because of the integrity of the investigation," she said. "We don't want to hinder their investigation." <

The area police are searching is also behind the Stark Co. headquarters at the corner of Rimrock Road and John Nolen Drive, but separated by dense brush and trees. <

"No one noticed anyone walking around," said Laura Phillips, a Stark Co. receptionist. "There's just so many unanswered questions. It's amazing." <

Seiler's roommate, UW-Madison student Heather Thue of Waunakee, appeared on the NBC "Today Show" Thursday. Thue searched through security footage to find images of Seiler and spent time with Seiler at the hospital after she was found. <

Before the nationally televised interview, police told Thue not to talk about why Seiler left the apartment without her belongings. <

"We're trying not to ask her questions just so that she has the story straight for the police so they can do their investigation," Thue said. <

Thue didn't return a reporter's telephone calls to her parents' home in Waunakee. <

Seiler's disappearance has made some in the campus area more safety-conscious. <

Three times as many people are making use of the Safe Walk service offered by UW-Madison since Seiler vanished early Saturday, said Jane Goemans, bike and pedestrian coordinator for UW-Madison Transportation Services. <

Ordinarily, three to five people per night make use of the service, which arranges for paid staff members to accompany single walkers within the campus area. But since Saturday as many as 15 to 18 people a night have made use of the service. <

"I think when something happens, a lot of it is fresh in people's minds and they're conscious of safety concerns," Goeman said. <

Anne Tuten, night coordinator for Women's Transit Authority, a free nighttime ride service for women, said its numbers have also edged up. WTA usually has one or two vans operating and picks up 20 to 50 people. <

These services, and some common sense, offer ample opportunity to keep from becoming the victim of crime, said Sgt. Edie Brogan of the UW-Madison Police. Students should always walk in groups, tell people where they are going and lock their doors, Brogan said, and remember that they are not invincible. <

Contact Barry Adams at [email protected] or 252-6148 or Patricia Simms at [email protected] or 252-6126

 

[El Tejon]

Jeff, I believe your scenario is unlikely to transpire. Young females are unlikely to take up arms even if the opportunity is available under law. Cultural biases against this are still too strong.

This case is similar to the Jill Berman case in Bloomington, Indiana. Jill disappeared in the wooded hills near Indiana University. Her body was recovered later by a squirrel hunter, IIRC.

In Indiana the "carry age" is 18 without a "training requirement." There was no increase in the number of young women applying for licenses or reports of them buying guns.

 

[Jeff Thomas]

Further unravelling ...

[El Tejon, I hear you ... even if a real abduction , such cases help only a very small minority to rethink personal security. More's the pity.]

Unfortunately, this looks increasingly like a very stressed out young woman who may need some counseling help. Either that, or it is really one for the record books.

Regards from TX


Cops: Audrey Changed Story of Abduction

Friday, April 02, 2004

MADISON, Wis. — The 20-year-old college student who originally claimed she was abducted from her apartment building at knife point has changed her story, telling police she was abducted from another location, authorities announced Friday.

After Audrey Seiler (search) was confronted with inconsistencies found in her story, she "admitted in fact she had not been abducted at her apartment all" and that "she just wanted to be 'alone,'" Madison Assistant Police Chief Noble Wray (search) said at a press conference Friday.

Authorities continue to investigate the case to determine if an abduction actually took place.

"They are really walking a fine line right now," Joe Cardinale, former New York Police Department squad commander told Fox News. "If (the police) go in there head strong saying 'You are a liar' you are going to turn her off totally ... Right now she's speaking to them and you want to keep the dialogue going.

"The bottom line is they want what's best for her."

Wray had acknowledged to reporters Thursday that "there may be inconsistencies" in the case, but he said the hunt was still on for a suspected abductor.

A composite sketch issued by police Thursday gave the first glimpse of the man Seiler said abducted her on Saturday. It was the second time in two months that she reported an unexplained attack.

The sketch shows a clean-shaven white man with a long chin in a stocking cap. A caption on the sketch describes the man as in his late 20s to early 30s, stocky and about 5 feet 10.

Seiler was cooperative during the interview, Kamholz said earlier. He also said authorities had no reason to doubt her claim that she was kidnapped.

Officers with guns drawn surrounded the marshy area a couple of miles from her apartment where Seiler was found Wednesday afternoon, looking for the suspect, but called off the search by nightfall. Officers were back at the scene Thursday looking for clues.

Police have declined to say whether Seiler was sexually assaulted. She was treated at a hospital Wednesday and released after less than six hours. A doctor said Seiler was cold and dehydrated and had muscle aches.

Her discovery capped an intense search in which dozens of volunteers from Seiler's hometown of Rockford, Minn., slogged through marshes and woods around campus and investigators scoured phone records and apartments for clues.

Seiler was involved in another mysterious incident Feb. 1, when she told police that someone struck her from behind and knocked her unconscious. She told police that she was then moved about a block from where she was attacked but was not sexually assaulted or robbed, authorities said.

Police refused a request by The Associated Press to release the police report from that incident. Capt. Richard Bach said officers believe the information might be connected to the latest investigation.

Fox News' Jeff Goldblatt and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

 

[jnojr]

The other way to look at it is what if we did have CCW and this guy had a permit That would be have been a serious S Storm.

And what if it was the Governor who did it? Or Elvis? Or the Illuminati? Or Colonel Mustard, in the foyer, with the lead pipe???

I don't get the point. We shouldn't have CCWs because one of them might commit a crime? Huh???

 

[AJ Dual]

Well, MPD just held a news conference where they said they weren't seeking a suspect any more.

Looks like it was typicak "cry for help" kind of stuff. She probably wanted to pull an incomplete this semester at the University or get some "pity-A's" from some of her profs. In all likelyhood the prior "assult" was also staged, but didn't get the dramatic results she needed.

That's too bad. Were I her parent, I'd cling real hard to the fact that her acting out took this form, I'd rather my kid turned Madison upside down, than try a rope, razor, or a bottle of sleeping pills instead. Several other college students from Wisconsin and Minnesota have dissapeared over the past two years, and I was hoping her apparent "escape" would potentially be a break in those cases.

And what if it was the Governor who did it? Or Elvis? Or the Illuminati? Or Colonel Mustard, in the foyer, with the lead pipe???

Relax, I'm pretty certain what sturmruger meant by that is he's concerned about the media using a criminal with a carry permit as propaganda against RKBA, and completely ignoring the logic that you don't need a carry permit to be a criminal, or carry. I've read his posts in the past, and he's pro carry, no doubts there.

As soon as I saw the surveliance video of her apartment lobby I was suspicious as well. I felt it had to be one of two things:

- She knew her abductor. An ex-boyfriend or other aquaintance was her stalker, and perhaps comitted the earlier assult.

- It's a hoax. (Which this is obviously turning out to be)

 

[Jeff Thomas]

It's all over, but the analyses ...

I agree ... if a confused kid has to do something foolish, this is preferable to suicide. But she does need some serious help. Sad.

Regards from TX


Cops: Audrey's Kidnap Story a Hoax

Friday, April 02, 2004

MADISON, Wis. — Police said Friday they are no longer seeking a suspect in the case of the 20-year-old college student who originally claimed she was abducted from her apartment building at knifepoint, after they discovered several inconsistencies in her story.

Audrey Seiler (search) told police the man who abducted her used duct tape, rope, cold medicine and other items against her -- some of which were found in the marsh area where Seiler was discovered, Assistant Police Chief Noble Wray (search) said at a press conference.

But police obtained store surveillance videotape showing Seiler purchasing the items during the time she was reported missing, Wray said.

"We do not believe there is a suspect at large, period," Wray said.

Wray also said that Seiler's personal computer had been used during the time she was missing and that research on parks and weather forecasts had been conducted on it.

Earlier Friday Wray said Seiler was confronted with inconsistencies found in her story, she "admitted in fact she had not been abducted at her apartment all" and that "she just wanted to be alone," Madison Wray said at a press conference Friday morning.

Wray had acknowledged to reporters Thursday that "there may be inconsistencies" in the case, but he said the hunt was still on for a suspected abductor.

A composite sketch issued by police Thursday gave the first glimpse of the man Seiler said abducted her on Saturday. It was the second time in two months that she reported an unexplained attack.

The sketch shows a clean-shaven white man with a long chin in a stocking cap. A caption on the sketch describes the man as in his late 20s to early 30s, stocky and about 5 feet 10.

Seiler was cooperative during the interview, police said earlier, and authorities had no reason to doubt her claim that she was kidnapped.

Officers with guns drawn surrounded the marshy area a couple of miles from her apartment where Seiler was found Wednesday afternoon, looking for the suspect, but called off the search by nightfall. Officers were back at the scene Thursday looking for clues.

Police have declined to say whether Seiler was sexually assaulted. She was treated at a hospital Wednesday and released after less than six hours. A doctor said Seiler was cold and dehydrated and had muscle aches.

Her discovery capped an intense search in which dozens of volunteers from Seiler's hometown of Rockford, Minn. (search), slogged through marshes and woods around campus and investigators scoured phone records and apartments for clues.

Seiler was involved in another mysterious incident Feb. 1, when she told police that someone struck her from behind and knocked her unconscious. She told police that she was then moved about a block from where she was attacked but was not sexually assaulted or robbed, authorities said.

Police refused a request by The Associated Press to release the police report from that incident. Capt. Richard Bach said officers believe the information might be connected to the latest investigation.

Fox News' Jeff Goldblatt and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

 

[El Tejon]

Spring=time for college girls to do goofy things. Boyfriend or grades, usually one or the other for a young female to do something goofy. (Idiot oil or Vitamin XXX for males).

"But, but, El Tejon, how do you know?"

Who do you think was in my office this week?

 

[Foe[H]ammer]

Just heard on AM 700 here in [H]ouston: Police say "There is no suspect at large for the second abduction because there is no reason to believe there was a second abduction. She has changed her story to many times to be considered credible. She claimed that the abductor used things like duct tape, rope and cough syrup to subdue her but was seen on CCTV in a drug store buying those exact same items just before the 'kidnapping'".