Wisconsin worries, re: CCW
- Thread starter Monkeyleg
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Monkeyleg
Member.
All very funny. But if we don't get people working Mark Green's campaign, we're going to be calling Jim Doyle "Governor" again.
Danus ex
Member
I drive into Hudson from the Twin Cities regularly and it's irritating that I can't bring my concealed weapon with me. It's ridiculous that by simply crossing a river I lose my civil rights. If and when you get CCW, the first thing you need to do is get reciprocity with Minnesota!
Hell, you guys should vote to become part of Minnesota for a few months. Sure, we've had some wacky liberals and B-movie politicians, but we're running an awfully tight ship at the moment. We'll fix ya up.
Hell, you guys should vote to become part of Minnesota for a few months. Sure, we've had some wacky liberals and B-movie politicians, but we're running an awfully tight ship at the moment. We'll fix ya up.
Monkeyleg
Member.
Danus, with all due respect, you Minnesota folks had the advantage of having discretionary-issue before the shall-issue bill came before your legislature.
And, thus, you didn't have all of the hand-wringing and moaning and fears of blood in the streets from every law enforcement official in your state, because many had already been through the process.
Shall-issue CCW scares people here, because they know nothing about it.
And the press does their very best to make sure that people know nothing about it.
And, thus, you didn't have all of the hand-wringing and moaning and fears of blood in the streets from every law enforcement official in your state, because many had already been through the process.
Shall-issue CCW scares people here, because they know nothing about it.
And the press does their very best to make sure that people know nothing about it.
Danus ex
Member
It's difficult to think of a good way to reach those who are afraid if the media isn't helping. I worked at the University of Minnesota when the discretionary bill was passed, and there was all sorts of hysteria from my coworkers. A month later, it was like it never happened. No "wild west" as they feared.
If there were any rational fence-sitters who wanted to know more about concealed carry, they could simply cross Wisconsin's western border and witness the non-stop murder mania that Minnesota has become.
If there were any rational fence-sitters who wanted to know more about concealed carry, they could simply cross Wisconsin's western border and witness the non-stop murder mania that Minnesota has become.
Monkeyleg
Member.
Danus, there's a sure-fire way to get pro-CCW legislators in WI elected, and to get just about all of the legislators to vote for our bill: get the backing of all of the various gun groups.
Back in 1997 (or was it 1998?) when we had the RKBA amendment on the ballot referendum, it passed by a margin of over 70%. Every deer hunter, bird shooter, clay buster, and plinker voted "yes."
But those are the very groups that don't care about CCW (with individual exceptions, of course).
After the 9/11 attacks, I noticed a significant change in the attitudes of people at the gun shows. Suddenly, they were interested in personal protection. 2001 was probably one of the best years we had for drumming up support for our bill.
But people have forgotten about everything from 9/11 to the idea that they cannot be protected 24/7 by the police.
In the 2002 election, Doyle flat out lied to union gun owners, saying that he "supported the rights of hunters and sportsmen...yada, yada, yada."
We have to get to these folks, and convince them that they've been lied to. If the deer hunters and wing shooters go for Doyle, we're going to lose.
Wisconsin is a hugely pro-NRA state. Nobody outside of Madison or Milwaukee gets elected without the NRA's endorsement.
But concealed carry is a whole different animal.
Back in 1997 (or was it 1998?) when we had the RKBA amendment on the ballot referendum, it passed by a margin of over 70%. Every deer hunter, bird shooter, clay buster, and plinker voted "yes."
But those are the very groups that don't care about CCW (with individual exceptions, of course).
After the 9/11 attacks, I noticed a significant change in the attitudes of people at the gun shows. Suddenly, they were interested in personal protection. 2001 was probably one of the best years we had for drumming up support for our bill.
But people have forgotten about everything from 9/11 to the idea that they cannot be protected 24/7 by the police.
In the 2002 election, Doyle flat out lied to union gun owners, saying that he "supported the rights of hunters and sportsmen...yada, yada, yada."
We have to get to these folks, and convince them that they've been lied to. If the deer hunters and wing shooters go for Doyle, we're going to lose.
Wisconsin is a hugely pro-NRA state. Nobody outside of Madison or Milwaukee gets elected without the NRA's endorsement.
But concealed carry is a whole different animal.
weregunner
Member
Monkeyleg,you are so right about Chucky doll Chavala.No I don't think of the Feds as saviors. Being an NRA type what would happen if all us different gun groups got together and powwowed? We all have the resources to get the word out. Suppose we had limited public forums or something similar?Besides,some of the gun organizations kind od hide to stay away from liberal scrutiny or attack. Time for us to show ourselves.If I"m off base let me know. Just geting wild ideas.Well,after all, Eddie eagle works and we are going to get shot for a sheep as a lamb.
Strings
Member
>But I can also see Doyle once again hoodwinking the voters. I can almost hear the voters say, "Oh, yah, dat Doyle, der, hey. He's like a big Packer fan. An' he's for dat stump cell research, where I can get all new brain cells from epileptic tree stumps."
Think I'm exagerrating? Ask anyone here on THR who's worked the gun shows for the WCCA.<
Oh, MY yes! And some of the WONDERFUL folks we get to run into!
-the guy unwilling to send a postcard to his state legiscritter, 'cause then "the Feds'll have me on a list, man!"
-the older guy that says "oh yeah... a postcard to me senator? Nah... don't need to... Kohl's a good guy!"
-the CHARMING gentleman who, when offered a flyer concerning CCW legislation (just trying to hand him info, that's all) responded with "I did NOT come here to be solicited!"
and the list goes on, and on, and on....
Think I'm exagerrating? Ask anyone here on THR who's worked the gun shows for the WCCA.<
Oh, MY yes! And some of the WONDERFUL folks we get to run into!
-the guy unwilling to send a postcard to his state legiscritter, 'cause then "the Feds'll have me on a list, man!"
-the older guy that says "oh yeah... a postcard to me senator? Nah... don't need to... Kohl's a good guy!"
-the CHARMING gentleman who, when offered a flyer concerning CCW legislation (just trying to hand him info, that's all) responded with "I did NOT come here to be solicited!"
and the list goes on, and on, and on....
weregunner
Member
Strings,For twenty years in the USAF I put up with people who's attitude stunk for any number of reasons.That includes the Clinton years.From officers and enlisted personnel the answer was ran as follows.Can't change anything,why bother.I don't care. Or just DUH.What?.Who? Yes, the people are not always the best in many ways but we gotta try.Yeah, I got cynical and hard bitten about it.The hunters and others shootin folks who didn't figure out that there rights are going to get stomped on are beginning to wake up.Have to keep pounding away.I talk to as many people as I can about this very thing.Heck it only took 8 years to get thru to my daughter she better wake up and hear the jackboots coming if we don't stand up and be counted.My congressman,senator and state and local politicians in my disrtrict know they will be bugged incessantly.So lets keep pounding away on these folks.Might not do any good and yes it is discouraging,but gotta try.
By the way, I was in refueling planes as the were being reloaded.support troops aren't always the brightest bulb.I ought to know . I"m one em.So here is to:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: Chow
By the way, I was in refueling planes as the were being reloaded.support troops aren't always the brightest bulb.I ought to know . I"m one em.So here is to:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: Chow
Monkeyleg
Member.
Just a little bit of news on the Riley/Plale situation.
I talked with my state senator (a Democrat) and there's going to be a meeting of Democrat legislators next week. They're going to try to get Riley to drop out of the race. Riley is already sending signals that he may do so.
That's good news, because we just may need Plale's vote if some RINO tries to insert a restrictive amendment.
I talked with my state senator (a Democrat) and there's going to be a meeting of Democrat legislators next week. They're going to try to get Riley to drop out of the race. Riley is already sending signals that he may do so.
That's good news, because we just may need Plale's vote if some RINO tries to insert a restrictive amendment.
Monkeyleg
Member.
Madison - Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle held a 48% to 38% lead over Republican challenger Mark Green in a poll a Madison television station released Thursday.
The Aug. 14-16 phone survey of 600 likely voters had a margin of error of 4 percentage points, and 14% of those responding did not say who should be elected Nov. 7.
Conducted by Research 2000 for WISC-TV, the poll's findings were in line with others that gave Doyle a lead of 4 to 7 percentage points over Green.
Like other polls, the survey found Doyle more popular with women than men: 51% of women responding rated Doyle's on-the-job performance as excellent or good; among men, the number was 45%.
Both campaigns said they were pleased with the poll, but for different reasons.
"Polls go up and down, and there's a long way to go," Doyle campaign spokesman Anson Kaye said. "But we're happy to have a substantial lead, and to be leading everywhere in the state."
Green campaign manager Mark Graul called the race for governor "incredibly close" and the poll "fantastic news."
Graul said the new poll showed that Green had survived about $2 million in TV ads spent by the Doyle campaign and an ally, the Greater Wisconsin Committee.
Doyle's campaign announced a new ad Thursday attacking Green's voting record in Congress and said he votes 92% of the time to support President Bush.
Now that it is running its own TV ads, Green's campaign will gain momentum, Graul said.
Graul said the poll found only 48% of respondents rating Doyle's performance excellent or good, dangerously low for an incumbent.
Also Thursday, the Republican Governors Association began running an anti-Doyle ad that features news stories on scandals involving the Doyle administration, saying the Democrat "put a price tag on Wisconsin's good name." An association spokesman refused to discuss the ad.
But Kaye noted that the Republican Governors Association hosted a $25,000-per-person Wisconsin fund-raiser last week, timed to coincide with the visit of Bush.
"This is the Green campaign in a nutshell - play $25,000 rounds of golf with high-rollers, make sure their special interest cash is used for attack ads against Gov. Doyle, and then hope it works," Kaye said.
The Aug. 14-16 phone survey of 600 likely voters had a margin of error of 4 percentage points, and 14% of those responding did not say who should be elected Nov. 7.
Conducted by Research 2000 for WISC-TV, the poll's findings were in line with others that gave Doyle a lead of 4 to 7 percentage points over Green.
Like other polls, the survey found Doyle more popular with women than men: 51% of women responding rated Doyle's on-the-job performance as excellent or good; among men, the number was 45%.
Both campaigns said they were pleased with the poll, but for different reasons.
"Polls go up and down, and there's a long way to go," Doyle campaign spokesman Anson Kaye said. "But we're happy to have a substantial lead, and to be leading everywhere in the state."
Green campaign manager Mark Graul called the race for governor "incredibly close" and the poll "fantastic news."
Graul said the new poll showed that Green had survived about $2 million in TV ads spent by the Doyle campaign and an ally, the Greater Wisconsin Committee.
Doyle's campaign announced a new ad Thursday attacking Green's voting record in Congress and said he votes 92% of the time to support President Bush.
Now that it is running its own TV ads, Green's campaign will gain momentum, Graul said.
Graul said the poll found only 48% of respondents rating Doyle's performance excellent or good, dangerously low for an incumbent.
Also Thursday, the Republican Governors Association began running an anti-Doyle ad that features news stories on scandals involving the Doyle administration, saying the Democrat "put a price tag on Wisconsin's good name." An association spokesman refused to discuss the ad.
But Kaye noted that the Republican Governors Association hosted a $25,000-per-person Wisconsin fund-raiser last week, timed to coincide with the visit of Bush.
"This is the Green campaign in a nutshell - play $25,000 rounds of golf with high-rollers, make sure their special interest cash is used for attack ads against Gov. Doyle, and then hope it works," Kaye said.
weregunner
Member
Is there a web site to get on the bandwagon Monkeyleg? I'll contact the NRA and see what's shaking.
Monkeyleg
Member.
weregunner, contact Green for Wisconsin at http://www.greenforwisconsin.com/ .
A poll from a Madison TV station doesn't put my underwear in a bunch.
If I see polling that's returning similar results, then we have a problem.
A poll from a Madison TV station doesn't put my underwear in a bunch.
If I see polling that's returning similar results, then we have a problem.
weregunner
Member
Thanks a bunch on the info. I'll give it a try.
Monkeyleg
Member.
More interesting news on some of the anti-gun Democrats.
Jim Sullivan, who's challenging Republican Senator Tom Reynolds, voted twice in each of the elections in 1996 and 1998.
Of course, Milwaukee Democrat District Attorney E. Michael McCann declined to press charges on both ocassions.
Should still make for some good campaign ammo, though.
Jim Sullivan, who's challenging Republican Senator Tom Reynolds, voted twice in each of the elections in 1996 and 1998.
Of course, Milwaukee Democrat District Attorney E. Michael McCann declined to press charges on both ocassions.
Should still make for some good campaign ammo, though.
StopTheGrays
Member
Sullivan was on Belling's show last week to answer Mark's questions on whether he voted twice. Sullivan's father is also named Jim Sullivan. Belling gave him the benefit of the doubt that some of the people working the polling centers are not the swiftest of people and they may have made a mistake when he voted thinking he was his father.
I agree with Belling that we should not jump so quick on this one until there is more proof of vote fraud being committed by Sullivan.
Demiurge
Member
Riley dropped out!
Monkeyleg
Member.
Good news on the Riley front.
StopTheGrays, Sullivan's parents were out of the country when the 1998 elections took place. Sullivan was house-sitting for his parents, while at the same time living in Wauwatosa.
Interestingly, Sullivan claims that it was his father who voted in the election, but doesn't explain why his mother--who always voted--did not that year.
Bob Dohnal of the Conservative Digest has been working away on the Sullivan matter. I hope he comes up with enough proof to nail the guy.
StopTheGrays, Sullivan's parents were out of the country when the 1998 elections took place. Sullivan was house-sitting for his parents, while at the same time living in Wauwatosa.
Interestingly, Sullivan claims that it was his father who voted in the election, but doesn't explain why his mother--who always voted--did not that year.
Bob Dohnal of the Conservative Digest has been working away on the Sullivan matter. I hope he comes up with enough proof to nail the guy.
weregunner
Member
Last but not least.Doyle Slick has more trouble.The out of state power company heads testified about meeting with Slicks Chief of Staff for campaign contributions in the tens of thousands of dollars in exchange so they could by the nuclear power plant.The out of state company had a no pass for the sale the first time from WE Energies.After the campaign contributions The out of staters got the green light when Doyle and company pressured for the sale to go through a second time.Hope there is more juicy info to come.The governor in stripes would be a nice fashion statement.These aren't pin stripes.
Monkeyleg
Member.
weregunner, absolutely right. But here's where the trail ends: Marc Marotta.
Several weeks back, Mark Belling did a radio show about Doyle, in which he compared Doyle to Nixon in 1972.
And I think that Belling is spot-on.
Right now, there is absolutely nothing to link Doyle to any of the fund-raising scandals. He's much too smart to be involved personally.
So far we have Georgia Thompson (facing 20 years in federal prison; sentencing on 9/22); Susan Goodwin (not indicted yet); and Marc Marotta.
From what even the right-wing extremist staffers tell me, Marotta is a decent, stand-up guy.
Marotta could become Doyle's John Dean. But that whole unfolding could very well come after the election.
And, so, we could see Doyle re-elected, only to be forced out of office ala Nixon. And we'd see Lt. Gov. Babara Lawton vetoing our bill again.
Folks, let's get our asses up out of our chairs and make sure this doesn't happen.
Several weeks back, Mark Belling did a radio show about Doyle, in which he compared Doyle to Nixon in 1972.
And I think that Belling is spot-on.
Right now, there is absolutely nothing to link Doyle to any of the fund-raising scandals. He's much too smart to be involved personally.
So far we have Georgia Thompson (facing 20 years in federal prison; sentencing on 9/22); Susan Goodwin (not indicted yet); and Marc Marotta.
From what even the right-wing extremist staffers tell me, Marotta is a decent, stand-up guy.
Marotta could become Doyle's John Dean. But that whole unfolding could very well come after the election.
And, so, we could see Doyle re-elected, only to be forced out of office ala Nixon. And we'd see Lt. Gov. Babara Lawton vetoing our bill again.
Folks, let's get our asses up out of our chairs and make sure this doesn't happen.
sturmruger
Member
Election of 2002
Doyle 45%
McCallum 41%
Thompson 11%
Young 3%
What really hurt the republican party in 2002 was not Doyle it was Ed Thompson. I think it would be safe to bet that about 3/4 of Thompson"s votes could have easily gone to McCallum. That would have been all he needed to handily beat Doyle. From everything I have heard there will be no strong third party canidate that will be soaking up voters from Republican Mark Green. I really believe that we can take back the Govenor's office this year and get CCW legislation passed by this time next year.
Doyle 45%
McCallum 41%
Thompson 11%
Young 3%
What really hurt the republican party in 2002 was not Doyle it was Ed Thompson. I think it would be safe to bet that about 3/4 of Thompson"s votes could have easily gone to McCallum. That would have been all he needed to handily beat Doyle. From everything I have heard there will be no strong third party canidate that will be soaking up voters from Republican Mark Green. I really believe that we can take back the Govenor's office this year and get CCW legislation passed by this time next year.
Monkeyleg
Member.
I wish I could share your confidence, Sturmruger.
The good news is that, despite the hundreds of thousands of dollars that Doyle has already spent on ads, his numbers haven't moved.
Mark Green's first series of ads, the ones that address Doyle's use of the term "extreme" to describe Green, are very effective. Not only do they neutralize the term "extreme," but they do so in a light-hearted way. The ads also serve to introduce Green and his family. That's a lot to pack into one ad.
The good news is that, despite the hundreds of thousands of dollars that Doyle has already spent on ads, his numbers haven't moved.
Mark Green's first series of ads, the ones that address Doyle's use of the term "extreme" to describe Green, are very effective. Not only do they neutralize the term "extreme," but they do so in a light-hearted way. The ads also serve to introduce Green and his family. That's a lot to pack into one ad.
weregunner
Member
Mark Green finely responding to Doyle is really good news.Monkeyleg,I think Green introducing himself this way was a stroke of genius.I also feel the sturmruger there has a valid point.No, we won't sit on our glutis maximus.Mark Green needs to have factual no name calling adds out.Time for everybody out there,and yes, I can hear them breathing, need to stand up and be counted.Hunters,shotgun sports types,gun groups,in other words all of us firearm owners need to get involved.Regardless of politcal affiliation this could be the swan song for us if no action is taken.It can't happen here camp needs to see what already has happened in New Orleans.BATF has also has been harassing or putting gunsmiths and others out of business.Support Mark Green anyway you can.Thankya kindly.I all is from southern Wisconsin. 
Monkeyleg
Member.
The NRA today announced their endorsement of JB Van Hollen for AG.
I knew this was coming, although I don't necessarily agree with the decision. If Bucher wins, the endorsement means he's going to be our enemy, not our friend.
JB is 150% better on gun issues in general and CCW in particular. However, I thought the NRA would hold off and wait until the primary was over.
Maybe the polling data is showing JB with such a commanding lead that there's no doubt he'll beat Bucher in the primary.
In the FWIW department: JB stopped in at a small fund-raising shoot we had in Deerfield back in January. He went down to the range, and borrowed someone's Glock. Although he says he's a revolver guy, he did a pretty good job of putting them in the X-ring.
I was impressed by that. There were people there with cameras. It's not unusual to see politicians holding trap or skeet guns, but I've never seen a politician allow himself to be photographed shooting a pistol.
When I told him that we might do a submachine gun shoot, his eyes really lit up.
I knew this was coming, although I don't necessarily agree with the decision. If Bucher wins, the endorsement means he's going to be our enemy, not our friend.
JB is 150% better on gun issues in general and CCW in particular. However, I thought the NRA would hold off and wait until the primary was over.
Maybe the polling data is showing JB with such a commanding lead that there's no doubt he'll beat Bucher in the primary.
In the FWIW department: JB stopped in at a small fund-raising shoot we had in Deerfield back in January. He went down to the range, and borrowed someone's Glock. Although he says he's a revolver guy, he did a pretty good job of putting them in the X-ring.
I was impressed by that. There were people there with cameras. It's not unusual to see politicians holding trap or skeet guns, but I've never seen a politician allow himself to be photographed shooting a pistol.
When I told him that we might do a submachine gun shoot, his eyes really lit up.
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