Wishing I'd never bought this POS RCBS Progressive

[JSimpson65]

Hello All,

My time to vent, I suppose.

After reloading on an RCBS single stage for almost 2 years now, I finally decided to step up to a progressive press. I read all the Dillon, RCBS, LNL, etc. threads on this board and elsewhere until I was crosseyed, and finally decided to go with an RCBS Pro 2000 for loading handgun ammo.

Press was received a few days ago. I spent the first evening setting things up. Took my time so I could be sure things were done right. Second evening I got the dies (45ACP) adjusted up, powder measure set, loaded the primers into the APS strips and thought I was ready to go. Right off the bat, I managed to chew up the first APS strip somehow. Managed to get the APS strip out of the press, assumed it was operator error, and tried again. Got about halfway through the second primer strip and again it jammed up on me. Strike 2. At this point I'm assuming I'm not doing something right, start getting frustated with the thing, so decide to call it quits and start fresh the next day.

Day 3. Take my time, load about 100 rounds without destroying anymore APS strips. Realize the little bent wire piece that is supposed to eject the loaded cartridge won't stay in place more than a few rounds. Tighten it up. Stil won't stay in place more than a few rounds. Tighten it as much as I dare, and still won't stay in place. OK, I guess I'll just have to manually remove the completed round instead - not happy with this. At this point, I'm thinking I'm about finished with the learning curve and things will start to go smoother. I've now spent about 4 hours and have 100 loaded rounds and several destroyed APS strips.

Day 4. Time to load up 200 or so rounds to get the thing working smooth. First APS strip jams up, have to remove shellplate to un-jamb. Add one more APS strip to the trash pile. Now I'm starting to get pretty good at pulling the shellplate to clear the jambs. Load another APS strip, same result after 2 rounds. Remove shellplate again to pry the mangled primer out, manage to finally pull the APS strip out. Put the shellplate back in, take a deep breath, and go slowly to try to sort things out. Try to load first round, and notice that the plate isn't auto-indexing again. Try loosening shellplate to readjust, retighten, etc. Still no dice - won't auto-index anymore.

Now I've finished 4 days. have a whole handful of mangled APS strips. Did I mention the color-coding on the strips is all screwed up (some whites are small primer, some whites are large. same for all colors - mixed small and large). I've now loaded about 100 rounds in about 8 hours. Needless to say, I could have done it a little faster on the old single-stage.

I don't know if I should just ship it all back to Midway, or call RCBS support. I still feel like some of the problems are operator error, but nevertheless I'm running out of the primer strips, press won't auto-index, I have to manually eject loaded round. To top it all off, I have an order on the way for some extra shellplates and die plates as well so if I scrap the RCBS idea altogether I have lots of different stuff to return, from different vendors.

ARRRGGGGGHHHHH why did I ever do this!!!!!!!

 

[ReloaderFred]

Before you vent on something that's new to you, you need to call customer support and talk to one of the technicians at RCBS. They're really nice people and can help you with your problems.

This isn't a put down, just some calm advice from someone who started reloading long, long, long before there were computers and had to figure stuff out for myself. Read the directions again and become familiar with the nomenclature of the machine before you call RCBS, so when they tell you what to adjust, you'll know what they're talking about.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Idano]

I have to agree with Fred, going from a Single stage to a progressive has a huge curve. I started out on a Lee LoadMaster and went through similar issues, swore it was a POS and moved to Hornady AP and when I started to have some of the similar problems I realized it was operator error and had not been equipment related. I have had my press for seven years and it works flawlessly now because I know how to set it up correctly when changing calibers; your will too once you get it figured out with a little help from RCBS and some more experience with it. From everything I have read you have good press there hang in there.

 

[GW Staar]

Hello All,

My time to vent, I suppose.

After reloading on an RCBS single stage for almost 2 years now, I finally decided to step up to a progressive press. I read all the Dillon, RCBS, LNL, etc. threads on this board and elsewhere until I was crosseyed, and finally decided to go with an RCBS Pro 2000 for loading handgun ammo.

Right off the bat, I managed to chew up the first APS strip somehow. Managed to get the APS strip out of the press, assumed it was operator error, and tried again. Got about halfway through the second primer strip and again it jammed up on me.

Ok, first of all get 2 hex wrenches that will just go into the primer hole in the shell plate. One for each size prime.r These will be a forever tools to unjam the APS when you screw up. When the priming system jams it is because you have moved a primer towards the shell holder (even slightly) and not finished pressing the primer into a case for what ever reason. To unjam you just put the hex wrench into the hole above the raised primer and press carefully the primer back flush into the strip...the strip should then advance normally or pull out easily. Keep in mind that any FORWARD movement of the press handle WILL raise the primer, so you'd better be prepared to prime a case or push it back down. When you get used to the system that won't be a problem. If for some reason you need to index the press with primers aboard, but have no intention of seating a primer (maybe a single case is already primed) then put a stop under the shell plate that will prevent it from going any lower than bottom dead center(handle up but not forward---further than that is the primer stroke that got you in touble) I just made me a stop from a 1/4" bolt 1-1/4"long with two nuts locked to each other at the end (making a flat base) then filed that base until the unit measured 1.184." With such a stop under the shellplate you can index all you want and never touch a primer hole or raise a primer in a jam position. That comes in handiest when I for some reason or another (but rarely) I hand prime some cases. Understand that the stop is only to be used when you aren't priming...of course if you remove the primer strip it don't matter.

Day 3. Take my time, load about 100 rounds without destroying anymore APS strips. Realize the little bent wire piece that is supposed to eject the loaded cartridge won't stay in place more than a few rounds. Tighten it up. Stil won't stay in place more than a few rounds. Tighten it as much as I dare, and still won't stay in place.

I've never had that problem...either the hex screw is faulty or the wire is not in far enough...or you adjusted it to point at the case. It has to point to the side of the case. If the case advances and the end of the wire is Pointed at it and jambed into it, the wire will be forced to turn or the case won't advance.

OK, I guess I'll just have to manually remove the completed round instead - not happy with this. At this point, I'm thinking I'm about finished with the learning curve and things will start to go smoother. I've now spent about 4 hours and have 100 loaded rounds and several destroyed APS strips.

I'll wager that if you call RCBS and tell them of your frustrations they will not only help you but send you a bunch of strips free. Remember strilps only go in one way and you can only pull them out by continuing them the same direction you started them.

Day 4. Time to load up 200 or so rounds to get the thing working smooth. First APS strip jams up, have to remove shellplate to un-jamb. Add one more APS strip to the trash pile. Now I'm starting to get pretty good at pulling the shellplate to clear the jambs. Load another APS strip, same result after 2 rounds. Remove shellplate again to pry the mangled primer out, manage to finally pull the APS strip out. Put the shellplate back in, take a deep breath, and go slowly to try to sort things out. Try to load first round, and notice that the plate isn't auto-indexing again. Try loosening shellplate to readjust, retighten, etc. Still no dice - won't auto-index anymore.

Now you need to go back to the setup instructions and carefully follow them to learn how to properly insert a shell plate. If the index bar pawl isn't engaged into one of the bottom detents (indented circles) of the shell plate it isn't going to advance. That's not hard to do when you're not mad. It's harder than hell when you are. In fact you can ruin the pawl if you get too angry. (RCBS will replace it if that happened.) It does become second nature, and shell plates can be a breeze to change when you figure it out. Do buy a hex socket, to use with a socket wrench, to fit the big center bolt to make changing shell holders even easier. BTW you won't have to keep removing the shell plate if you just use the hex wrench mentioned above to push the primer back down. If you don't have the right size "primer pusher"hex wrench to fit the hole find something else...wood dowel, bolt...I found that a .223 bullet works for the big primers.

Now I've finished 4 days. have a whole handful of mangled APS strips. Did I mention the color-coding on the strips is all screwed up (some whites are small primer, some whites are large. same for all colors - mixed small and large).

The color-coding system is white for Pistol...you DO have to look at the size of the holes to tell if its for small primers or large...same for the other colors. I bought a nifty plastic thingy at Walmart with little plastic drawers in the kitchen dept. to put my strips in and keep them separated.

I've now loaded about 100 rounds in about 8 hours. Needless to say, I could have done it a little faster on the old single-stage.

There is a learning curve for every brand of press. A good friend choose a Dillon 650 and in the first week and 7 phone calls to Dillon, he had primers all over the floor, smashed brass, primers seated upsidedown, and 3 parts reordered because he got carried away...bet he was as hot as you are. Your press is simpler, fewer parts to adjust, and the APS system is super when you learn how to do it. I promise. I don't promise that you can learn it or the Dillon if you don't have the patience to learn, so relax and have a rootbeer. Trust me real beer won't help. My first week with the Pro 2000 I loaded 100 rounds before I noticed that there was powder in the bin and none of the finished rounds had primers....100% operator error. I got better fast.

I don't know if I should just ship it all back to Midway, or call RCBS support. I still feel like some of the problems are operator error, but nevertheless I'm running out of the primer strips, press won't auto-index, I have to manually eject loaded round. To top it all off, I have an order on the way for some extra shellplates and die plates as well so if I scrap the RCBS idea altogether I have lots of different stuff to return, from different vendors.

ARRRGGGGGHHHHH why did I ever do this!!!!!!!

Don't send it back. It really is a great press and primer system. The instructions don't deserve an A, but neither do the instructions for any other press.

 

[ants]

...until I was crosseyed.

There, that's your problem.
You were still crosseyed when you set up the press.
Some of the best people have trouble with a new press.
But you'll work it out. You're smart. Cool off and go slow until it comes to you.

 

[ReloaderFred]

I saw this same posting on the cast boolits forum. How many forums have you posted this on before you called the company that made the press and asked for help? It just makes sense that if you don't understand what's going on, ask the people who built it how to make it work properly and then if you can't make it work, start complaining to them.

GW Staar has given you some good tips, but you still need to call RCBS.

Fred

 

[lykoris]

First of all when you get up this morning do yourself a favour and call RCBS, I'm certain they will help you resolve your problem with the strips. If it's operator error they will have the solution as 101 others will have contacted them with the same problem. If it is the machine they will replace it. There is no need to increase your frustration unless you're a masochist

Secondly, there is no need to second guess your decision to move to a progressive and believe it or not 'issues' arise with every progressive press. I've a 650 and have had my fair share of issues with this supposed 'perfect' press. It is the nature of the best of all progressives given the higher number of moving parts - more moving parts more probability of something going out of sink.

Let us know how you are getting on with it. I'm sure in due time you'll realise you were happy with going progressive

 

[mcdonl]

I have heard that all progressive presses are difficult to setup the first time. I know what to expect when I get one!

 

[qajaq59]

Sometimes it helps to vent a little. But now give the techs a call and get it straightened out and you'll do fine. Going from a single stage to anything that is "automatic" is always going to have some frustration to it.

 

[Walkalong]

Call RCBS and sort it out, or sell it to me for half price, and I'll call RCBS and sort it out.

Seriously. Follow Fred's advise. A new progressive can be quite frustrating until one gets everything adjusted and gets familiar with how it works. Walk away, calm down, come back a day or so later, call RCBS, and it will be OK.

 

[LiveLife]

I have heard that all progressive presses are difficult to setup the first time. I know what to expect when I get one!

Yeah, learn from our mistakes and don't reinvent the wheel.

There are plenty of Youtube videos on how to setup various progressive presses too - viewing some of them a few times may help you avoid the frustration.

 

[Quoheleth]

OK...since no one else is brave enough to do it, I will:

Shoulda bought a Lee turret

Q

 

[joed]

Progressive presses require the owner to possess mechanical knowledge. Setup time varies depending on the cartridge. There are also minute adjustments that need to be made. Once all this is done the press will reward you big time.

I've owned Dillons for 8 years now. My last one a 650 was horrible, I swear Dillon had their worst employee assemble that press. First use took 2.5 hours to do 500 rounds of .357 Mag. The case feeder wouldn't feed and primers weren't feeding or didn't line up correctly.

In desperation I called Dillon and described the problems. After 15 minutes of talk and adjustments that press just spits out ammo all day long with no problems.

You'll probably find once you call RCBS there are some small adjustments you need to make.

 

[GW Staar]

OK...since no one else is brave enough to do it, I will:

Shoulda bought a Lee turret

Wouldn't be a bad idea, except that he already has a single action press to go with his Pro 2000 to do the bottle neck rifle case prep steps.

 

[GW Staar]

Double tap

 

[JSimpson65]

Hello, me again with a less frustrated mindset now.

GW Starr - thanks for the info you've posted. A couple things I had already figured out, and you gave a few more hints that definately would have taken some trial and error.

I started trying to sort out the indexing problem this morning. I had already tried loosening and repositioning the shellplate a few times last night and couldn't get it to index. I had no problem with this on the initial setup and the instructions clearly stated to make sure it was installed in the right position. This morning, I found I could make it index manually if I throw the indexing pawl at the rear by hand. From there, I found that the vertical steel plate at the back (return cam?) that shifts the pawl to the left on the upstroke had shifted just enough that it wasn't moving the pawl enough to index. Loosened up the two allen screws, reposition, still not quite there. Loosen and reposition again, finally got the press to auto-index again.

Now I'm down to figuring out the APS system. I'm sure it's my technique. Maybe someone here can offer advice. When I insert the APS strip, I do it with the ram pressed forward (like you are priming) which raises the primer seater. If I press the APS strip to just engage this (1 click), then cycle the press, it often won't advance and prime the first case. I thought the solution was to insert as above, then lower the primer seater and advance one more click, so that the first primer is now on top of the seater. I did this on day 3, which was the day I loaded 100 rounds, and seemed to work OK even though it would skip the first primer and the second primer in the strip would prime the first case. When I tried the same yesterday, I kept getting jams and chewing up the primer strips. Anyone care to share their technique?

Regarding the spring that ejects the loaded round into the tray, I had it seated so it was pointed slightly behind the incoming round. This works, but after a few rounds it started gradually creeping clockwise, until it stopped ejecting. I tried tightening to the point where I was afraid of stripping the setscrew, but still the same. It just seems like a setscrew on a little wire that wants to rotate isn't the best way to solve this?

Now, I seem to be making some progress. Tried customer service, but their hours are basically the same as my work hours, so I would almost have to take part of a day off work to get their help - not so good in my opinion.

Another thing that I was surprised at was that RCBS would sell a press at this price with a set of instructions that look like a xerox copy of a xerox copy. Had the same issue with my Rockchucker, but the Progressive is much more complicated. You're stuck with written instructions that refer you do a photo that is so blacked out from the xerox that it is extremely difficult to even tell what is shown in the photo. Would it be too much to ask for a real, legible printed instruction manual on a $500+ peice of equipment? In my opinion, this is an embarrassment to a company like RCBS who seem to promote themselves as the higher end of the quality spectrum.

Anyway, thanks again for not only the helpful advice but words of encouragement. I'm sure we've all had our moments where the frustration builds to the point where you want to throw the thing out the window.

Joe

 

[JSimpson65]

I saw this same posting on the cast boolits forum. How many forums have you posted this on before you called the company that made the press and asked for help? It just makes sense that if you don't understand what's going on, ask the people who built it how to make it work properly and then if you can't make it work, start complaining to them.

GW Staar has given you some good tips, but you still need to call RCBS.

Fred

You are correct that I posted it in more than one place. My hope was that there would be a higher probability of getting some helpful info.

I had envisioned the reponses to be:

50% - "Should have bought a Dillon"
20% - "Call RCBS, their tech support is awesome"
10% - "My Lee is better for half the price"
10% - "you're an idiot - I have the same press and it's perfect"
10% - other



Joe

 

[grubbylabs]

Did you try Youtube? While it was not incredible informative to me(I don't have a progressive) you might see something, he did show how he set the priming strips which might be of help to you. Good luck with your press, I too would be a little less than happy if I found instructions like that.

 

[Balrog]

http://www.dillonprecision.com/

 

[Tilos]

Lots of good info and vids here:

http://ultimatereloader.com/

 

[Fatelvis]

http://www.dillonprecision.com/

Bal, thats just not right. (Snicker-snicker).
But seriously....They both are American made, and of great quality. I use a Dillon, but wouldn't hesitate to buy a RCBS. Owning alot of thier stuff, it's all quality made, to tight tolerances.

 

[Otto]

Now I'm down to figuring out the APS system. I'm sure it's my technique. Maybe someone here can offer advice. When I insert the APS strip, I do it with the ram pressed forward (like you are priming) which raises the primer seater.

The APS strip needs to snap in place when inserted, see this YouTube video at the 6 minute mark. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnfeTPZeOMQ by UltimateReloader

Some people like the APS system and some don't. RCBS realized this and made a primer tube conversion for it. I'm not suggesting that but it is an option.

 

[230therapy]

Another vote for the Dillon RL550B.

But, you really should contact RCBS for assistance. You already have the press, so you may as well try to make it work for you.

 

[Walkalong]

Call RCBS.

If you do, I bet in a week or two from now you will be singing its praises, but if not, my buy it for half price offer is still good.

 

[GW Staar]

I started trying to sort out the indexing problem this morning. I had already tried loosening and repositioning the shellplate a few times last night and couldn't get it to index. I had no problem with this on the initial setup and the instructions clearly stated to make sure it was installed in the right position. This morning, I found I could make it index manually if I throw the indexing pawl at the rear by hand. From there, I found that the vertical steel plate at the back (return cam?) that shifts the pawl to the left on the upstroke had shifted just enough that it wasn't moving the pawl enough to index. Loosened up the two allen screws, reposition, still not quite there. Loosen and reposition again, finally got the press to auto-index again.

When you install a shell plate it's a matter of feel too. If everything feels too tight, the pawl is not engaged but scratching along the flat plate surface as you tighten the main plate bolt. The detents serve to capture the pawl inside their circle. When captured things loosen up and there's a little play (the circular detents are big enough to allow the pawl a little room.
Then you tighten things up and it should work as smooth as a baby's butt.

One more thing. I don't know if you bought the auto advance machine or the manual advance with an auto advance upgrade kit. What's in stock is the factor. I was willing to take a $30 hit and bought the manual with the kit, because a year ago January there wasn't a auto advance machine on the planet thanks to Obama's election and the panic buying. I noticed recently that it's still easier to find the manual version. Why does that make a difference? The manual version "used" to have a stronger advance spring. (the one under the ball bearing) The stronger spring cause a snap as it advanced the plate and my .45ACP cases ejected a bit of powder. I called RCBS and they had me a softer spring in two days. It worked like a dream. Be observant, if you see powder ejecting from the top of a shallow case...call them and get the softer spring.

BTW the Auto advance kit requires that you learn a little more about the maching because you are converting it. The directions that come with it are slightly better...expecially in the visual quality. I recommend you down load the Auto Advance Kit instructions to go with your others. At least you can make out the pictures better.

Now I'm down to figuring out the APS system. I'm sure it's my technique. Maybe someone here can offer advice. When I insert the APS strip, I do it with the ram pressed forward (like you are priming) which raises the primer seater.

NO! That's the problem! The strips should be loaded when the handle is up and at rest. DON'T push the handle forward!

If I press the APS strip to just engage this (1 click), then cycle the press, it often won't advance and prime the first case. I thought the solution was to insert as above, then lower the primer seater and advance one more click, so that the first primer is now on top of the seater. I did this on day 3, which was the day I loaded 100 rounds, and seemed to work OK even though it would skip the first primer and the second primer in the strip would prime the first case. When I tried the same yesterday, I kept getting jams and chewing up the primer strips. Anyone care to share their technique?

My biggest problem was remembering to add another strip every 20 or so rounds. It's not cool to run out and not notice. I put 20 bullets in 5 tiny cups and pour them into the tray 20 at a time. Then when I run out of bullets I pour another cup in and add a new strip. When your memory goes you have to take measures.

I have NEVER chewed up a primer strip...I can't even imagine why...maybe it's the strip loading with the handle pushed forward.

Check out a little Mod I did to my APS system.

Regarding the spring that ejects the loaded round into the tray, I had it seated so it was pointed slightly behind the incoming round. This works, but after a few rounds it started gradually creeping clockwise, until it stopped ejecting. I tried tightening to the point where I was afraid of stripping the setscrew, but still the same. It just seems like a setscrew on a little wire that wants to rotate isn't the best way to solve this?

Mine doesn't do that, I set it and forget it. I wonder if something is in the threaded hole like metal cuttings from tapping it? (I think that's a Dillon design they copied.)

Now, I seem to be making some progress. Tried customer service, but their hours are basically the same as my work hours, so I would almost have to take part of a day off work to get their help - not so good in my opinion.

Another thing that I was surprised at was that RCBS would sell a press at this price with a set of instructions that look like a xerox copy of a xerox copy. Had the same issue with my Rockchucker, but the Progressive is much more complicated. You're stuck with written instructions that refer you do a photo that is so blacked out from the xerox that it is extremely difficult to even tell what is shown in the photo. Would it be too much to ask for a real, legible printed instruction manual on a $500+ peice of equipment? In my opinion, this is an embarrassment to a company like RCBS who seem to promote themselves as the higher end of the quality spectrum.

I'm not going to defend RCBS on that. I agree. However, I've heard similar complaints from Dillon, Hornady, and Lee folks. It seems to be an industry tradition. The Lee users are really loyal, to the point that everybody who's handy have posted really good stuff...even videos, that make those machines purr inspite of their quality limitations. Great bunch of people.

Anyway, thanks again for not only the helpful advice but words of encouragement. I'm sure we've all had our moments where the frustration builds to the point where you want to throw the thing out the window.

You're welcome. When you figure things out and find kool tricks yourself just pass it on.