Witness to a strong-arm

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4ME&MYHOUSE

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So last night I take the family to the department store, I had a long day and after making a few passes around the aisles with them (checkout the store) I tell them I will wait in the car, as I said long day BAD knee.

Walking outside a dark SUV passes behind me from right to left.... bad vibe, guy looking out passenger window (window down, cold night), I make eye contact, they move on. I lose sight of them about two rows over. I get in my car, pull wallet ou to get comfortable to check e-mails, turn on seat warmer, look-up and a see afre-mentioned dirtbag wrestle purse from lady as she was loading her car. By the time I determine she is in a bad place he is in a full sprint as she is following screaming for him to stop ( He was smiling the entire time :fire:).

All I could do was stand over my car on the step bar to get a better view, yell at him to stop, lay on the horn and get 911 on the line, he ran to the end of the row where his partner was driving parallel and pickied him up....bye bye.

911 put me on hold, the lady was devasted but not physically injured, security showed up 3 mins later, the law 15 mins later.

Gave them a description along with other witnesses, security asked for my ID, I refused it to them but gave them my first name and a contact number. No license plate on rear (intentionally obscured).

Could I have done anything differently? I live in CA, can't legally carry, felt like crap for a couple of hours at seeing a woman treated like that before my eyes. The only positive I can glean is that my wife now sees things as I see them, I have seen people at their WORST in the past, which has much to do with how I see the world, don't like to get graphic with her, but somehow them seeing the aftermath (they came out about 6 mins later) and that you really are responsible for your own security gave her and the little one an appreciation for why I always tell them no phones or goofing to or from vehicle, among other things.
 
Well, someone lost money and property, but was unharmed. On the flip side, they served as an object lesson to a number of other folks who will now keep a bit more of a watch on their surroundings and may even choose to get more proactive at preventing "victimhood."

You were a good witness. That's about all you can do. Having a concealed weapon on your person would not have changed anything in this particular instance.
In all but the very best of legislative jurisdictions, you will not be on sound legal footing if you shoot a purse-snatcher who has not threatened violence, especially if the attack is on another person. Same thing generally goes for even "brandishing" the weapon to try and dissuade the attacker.
(Can you imagine what might go on in the poor lady's mind if one guy is grabbing her purse and she sees another guy running at her yelling and waving a pistol? She might understand your intent...or she might have a heart attack!)

Secondly, it sounds like you were much too far away to have effectively engaged the attacker (verbally or with your sidearm) if such action were warranted.

And if you could have engaged -- even legally -- is this lady's purse worth your potential injury/death, or the years of court battles and tens of thousands of dollars it would cost you to get yourself free of the mess if you had shot him? That's a tricky question as we'd all like to be Good Samaritans and "Sheepdogs" who step up to protect our fellow man/woman. On the other hand, your weapon is there to protect *your life* and those of your loved ones. If you enter a violent encounter -- either as a victim, or by your own initiative -- there is a distinct chance that the vast range of unknowns and chances will conspire against you and you will lose. Dying to protect a stranger's purse (potentially valued at $200, max.) would be a huge disservice to your family who will then be without you and in a world of hurt.

Even had that lady been shot to death before your eyes, you could have hardly done anything more.

You did just fine.

-Sam
 
You did well to notice the suspicious vehicle. Next time you could call 911 to report a suspicious vehicle with an intentionally obscured license plate casing a parking lot before you see a crime committed. I'm not being critical here in any way, in my experience most people call 911 late in the game, not being sure when to call 911 or not.

I'm glad everyone ended up safe.

-John
 
Stories like this are just proof that disarmed people are victims for the crime machine. Had you a weapon, you might have been able to do something. No offense, but the police showing up in 15 minutes is at once, decent response time (for them, considering) and a bloddy joke.

These stories need to be told over and over again until people realize that safety is YOUR responsibility. It is your life to loose. Having the government determine that you should have to loose your life, by disarming you, is BS. They do not have the authority to do it.
 
......."Next time you could call 911 to report a suspicious vehicle with an intentionally obscured license plate"

Thanks for your construcive input, that's why I come to THR!

As for the plates, the vehicle passed me from right to left, behind me, the front plate was intact, did not notice the rear until they were leaving.

I do see what you mean though, perhaps staying vigilant LONGER after I noticed suspicious activity would have helped.

Thanks again
 
Nothing more you could do. IF you were carrying are you willing to face a civil suit, and the $$$$$$$$$$$$ associated with it do defend a strangers purse?

I weapon is designed to defend YOUR life. not a purse. Sadly what is right is not the same as what is legal.:(:(


p.s. in Indiana 8-10 years ago a guy was sitting in a fast food restaurant when a robbery went down. He quietly stood up shot the bas%#@d dead, and walked out the door. The Police tried to get a description from the employees, but EVERY employee gave a different one.
 
SAM1911 hit it on the head. Even if carrying, shooting would not be in your best interest. Here in MI, you can only shoot in defense of great bodily harm. Crimes of property have no bearing... Again like SAM1911 said, short of being able to restrain the BG, you had the best possible outcome. A little property loss, but no one hurt.
 
felt like crap for a couple of hours at seeing a woman treated like that before my eyes.
Click to expand...
Hey don't feel bad, the scenario ended with the outcome rated "Good". All the good-guys went home unhurt. Sorry for the woman's loss, but I bet she's more alert in the future (and maybe some of her friends too after she relates her story).

What a bummer. They ought to make some type of non lethal tracking dart...
Click to expand...

Personally I'd rather have the "Carpoon" (carpoon) <Scroll about halfway down>
 
A clarification...

I included the part about California and not having a CCW to head-off any posts regarding drawing a weapon..... I never considered that an option even if I were carrying.

Again, thanks to all...
 
'Bout 3 years ago, 4 buddies and I are in a bar having lunch when some low-life gets loud and pulls a knife on the guy waiting on him and gets mouthy.

Did I happen to mention we just finished an IDPA match before lunch?:evil:

Felt like an AMEX-Precious moment as we all drew down on him:)
 
About the only other thing you could have done would have been to follow them in your car, not pursuit per se, just follow. It sounds like you had a cell phone with you, and I'll assume your wife inside the store did too. You could have called her first to let her know you were running an errand and that you'd call when you got back, then call back 911 and let them know you are "following" the suspects at a safe distance as an eye witness to help them track the suspects down. But all this without putting yourself into further harms way.

I had cause to dial 911 the other day, domestic dispute on the shoulder of a roadway, divided road, I was on the other side, no easy way to turn around, didn't look violent yet, guy inside car yelling/pleading with her, gal outside of car walking along the grass along the shoulder, another car in their same direction looked like he asked if she needed help and it looked from my rear view mirror that she waved him/the good samaritan off. My call to 911 rang and rang and rang and after about 20+ rings I just hung up. I was going to report a domestic dispute, non-emergency yet, but with the car blocking the right lane of the 50mph roadway that they might want to have an officer respond to.
 
following the perp's car may have helped, it also might have gotten you killed, there's no way to know.
It sounds like you did what you could.

I tried tracking the kid who stole my bike last summer, but since I was in my car he always found a way to ditch me by changing directions or going across fields etc.
 
And if you could have engaged -- even legally -- is this lady's purse worth your potential injury/death, or the years of court battles and tens of thousands of dollars it would cost you to get yourself free of the mess if you had shot him? That's a tricky question as we'd all like to be Good Samaritans and "Sheepdogs" who step up to protect our fellow man/woman.
Click to expand...

I gotta disagree with you here, Sam. We should all take every opportunity to thwart the bad elements in our society.
 
Sam,
How can you put a value of $200 max. on the woman's purse? How do you know what she did or didn't have in it?
Click to expand...

Well, I suppose you're right.

Maybe I should have said it this way: Unless she was carrying HER BABY in it (i.e.: a human being) then nothing in that purse is worth a fart compared to my life and/or the prosecution that would undoubtedly ensue from threatening, brandishing, wounding, or killing the poor, unfortunate mugger.

Is that more clear?


Had her life been threatened, then I believe that I would try to act. Her property -- heck, up to a point, even MY property -- isn't worth it. Not by a mile.


"The PURSES, the PURSES! Won't SOMEBODY think of the PURSES? :rolleyes:


-Sam
 
I gotta disagree with you here, Sam. We should all take every opportunity to thwart the bad elements in our society.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I agree with you on that. We should oppose evil in all its manifestations. That's a lovely sentiment and a truly noble idea.

"4ME" has said he yelled, blew his horn, made the robber aware that he'd been seen in the act. If he'd been closer, perhaps he could have physically struggled with the assailant. Maybe he would have been beaten, stabbed, or shot. --Over a purse.-- But, ahhhh, if he only had his GUN!

What was he to do? Seriously, what should he reasonably have done? Draw on the guy? Shot him?

That's a pretty short conversation with the cops:
"He snatched someone else's purse?"
"Yup."
"And you shot him dead?"
"Yup."
"Well, o.k., then. Sir, you have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be..."

So lets agree that that just isn't going to happen.

Option 2: Lets say you do draw and the guy actually stops and returns the purse and waits politely for the cops. Now the cops arrive a few minutes later and hear that one guy snatched a purse and one guy brandished a loaded handgun in a public parking lot. Guess which offense they'll prosecute more severely? Give up? Here's a hint: Purse guy will have plenty of time later in the day to lift another bag or two while you're waiting for your attorney in a holding cell.

Option 3 is even better: You run up to the lady and perp and draw your weapon. A smart perp would run anyway because the guy with the gun would have to be so monumentally dumb to actually shoot someone over a snatched purse. So he runs, either with the purse or without. Cops show up. Lady gives a statement. You give a statement. Lady's statement probably goes something like, "He grabbed my purse and I was yelling and trying to grab it back, and then this other guy ran at us screaming and waving a GUN! I dropped my purse and ran away as fast as I could! Later Mr. GUN Guy told me he was just trying to help."

Now the cops have one suspect in custody for brandishing a firearm (maybe other charges, too) and a vague description of a petty robber who may or may not ever be seen again.

One more time, the question: WHAT could "4ME" have aided anyone? He did all he could/should have done.

Opposing evil is a great general world view. But, the specifics can get VERY tricky. If you oppose evil by attempting to stop someone's purse from getting stolen, but INFLICT evil on yourself and loved ones by becoming incarcerated and a felon -- or DEAD, how did the balance swing for you?

Let's look at that balance chart, shall we?
Your life? = take the risk, oppose the evil, defend youself
Someone else's life? = most probably take the risk and defend them
Your property? = think carefully, maybe risk your life or freedom for it
Someone else's significantly valuable property? = Probably not. VERY hight threshold of "need" to get over. Who's is it and what is it?
Someone else's minor, petty property? = You have got to be kidding!

-Sam
 
Thanks Sam

I do believe your last post sums up the reasons for my post....just troubled by having to do the 'real world' thing, that is, look at the situation for what it is, and that unfortunately as another poster put it "..sometimes the bad guys win".

After reading the posts, and thinking it over, I don't feel bad about my reaction, just feel bad for the lady.
 
I'm sorry to hear that things didn't go well. Hoepfully the lady will now have opened up her eyes and will be watchful. I see ALOT of ladies carry crap in BOTH their hands and arms. AS well as they always have GIANT purses sometimes.

On a different note, my mom (63) had an encounter with a purse thief. She has been a black belt in Karate for 10 years and has studied for over 20 years. Needless to say the thief didn't stand a chance. We had to go to the police because they say she used too much force (broken nose, broken rib and crushed wind pipe). It was VERY angering because now my MOM (40+ years of teaching, 3rd grade teacher, 5'3", hispanic lady) was being blamed for being agressive. OH well, enough of that, we walked out without any issues.
I know the California issues as I live in the "OC". Anyways good luck and keep it safe.
-bix
 
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