Wolf .45; NUMEROUS Split Cases.

[Mr Jody Hudson]

Although Wolf ammo tends to be powerful and accurate, there are some problems, at times with feeding and ejecting.

This afternoon I shot about 100 rounds of Wolf .45 and had SIX split cases!!!!! Of course that meant I had to "hammer" them out with a cleaning rod down the barrel, into the empty case.

Hmmmmmm.... What causes that? I would like to have a scientific explanation regarding cause.

There are some very savy folks here.

 

[P95Carry]

Hi Jody!!

No total explanation ... more a theory.

I tend to think that two factors may come into play ... first is wall thickness and thus tensile strength under extremes. Maybe a tad on thin side.

Second, not even sure if the cases are formed from a ductile low carbon steel or not .. I have a suspicion that the steel used could be very much based on recycled stuff which may vary metallurgically - after all this stuff has to be made cheap and for thowaway .... and so if some batches higher carbon at times then the forming will work harden to greater extent .... that effect being most noticeable in the thinnest areas.

Just a quick 0.02 of theorizing!!


(R9 time gets closer!! )

 

[shep854]

Another line of inquiry; Is it possible that your pistol's chamber is a little oversize? This concievably could allow the steel cases to stretch beyond their limits.

Just a thought.

 

[P95Carry]

Another possible factor Shep .... for sure.

I doubt the steel cases have anything like the ductility of brass when they expand.

 

[Wildalaska]

How about???

Cheap ammo made by indifferent underpaid workers in a thrid world country.

Wildwolfammo-gunsmithsdreamAlaska

 

[Valkman]

I had the same thing happen long ago with Blazer in .357, and I haven't used it since.

 

[BluesBear]

Mr Hudson, was this the older or newer Wolf? I haven't even seen any of the new stuff yet.

I've shot over 1000 rounds of Wolf in the past 2½ months and had ZERO problems with it.

How is your pistol throated?
Can you post some pics? Perhaps alongside an unfired round and also next to a fired brass case from the same gun?
There has to be a reason why and I am sure we'd all like to discover it.

 

[shep854]

Can case splitting damage a gun? If not, there shouldn't be much of a problem, since the ammo isn't reloadable, even though it looks bad.

 

[BluesBear]

It all depends on where and how it splits.

A small split at the case mouth is usually not dangerous.
A split in the web allowing the gas to travel in the wrong direction is at best "friendly fire".

 

[Sarge111]

Is nobody going to ask...

what Mr. Hudson was shooting them through?

I have used Wolf .45 Hardball for the past 3 years for department qualifications, etc. to the tune of about a thousand rounds. No malfs, and the cases I have bothered to look at were fine. They are cheap, dirty, and run good- way better than Blazer hardball in my experience. Add to that the fact that my Sig 220 will consistently group 5 rounds of it into 4-5 " at 50 yards, and you have a 'win' in my book. The best I have ever been able to shoot it with non-match ammo is about 3.5" at 50. All you guys who hate Wolf .45 can send it to me... and my stock of reloads will last forever. I won't even charge you anything for disposing of it.

Wild... the 1911 is a 'gunsmith's dream'. A good .45 will run with about anything

 

[tpdtom]

Wolf Ammo

I am not knowledgeable regarding hangun ammo , nor am I a top pistolero . But I know that it is foolish to try to save a few bucks at the possible expense of your own safety . The gun manufacturers I have spoken with have recommended American Eagle FMJ and Winchester White Box for .45 hardball target ammo and to break in their guns . For personal defense there are again many choices but more top custom pistolsmiths suggest Federal Hydra Shok than all the other brands combined .

At the entrance to the large public range where I shoot , where many leagues are held and guns sold , is a large sign . It says , "ABSOLUTELY NO WOLF AMMO ALLOWED ON RANGE . NO EXCEPTIONS !" This place is run and owned by shooters with decades of experience . They make no rash decisions . On their website they tell about the kaboom and the response from the Wolf distributers . I'll try to attach the pics of the brass .

I know that I haven't changed the minds of the people who have been shooting it without problems for years , they don't want anyone telling them something that they don't want to hear , but maybe this will make a newbie think twice......stay safe....Tom

 

[Mr Jody Hudson]

I bought a couple of cases a few months back and have not had trouble with it before. This was from one box or two out of the two or three cases I got.

I've had little if any trouble before and it's the most accurate ammo I've shot. Better than Federal Match, for NATO out of current Lake City -- by shooting about half the group size and more rounded than Match.

The cases were split from close to the throat to about half way to the base or a little closer to the base. NO other problems with ammo in the past.

Gun is box stock ParaOrdnance P-45 I think P-17 (if that is the most rounds) I have 19 round mags for it that ar PO factory orig. with extensions and have shot perhaps 3,000 or 4,000 rounds of different ammo. Yesterday, shooting Blazer, WWB, PMC, American, and Fed.Match Lake City Nato, in addition to Wolf... Only Wolf had problem and Wolf was by far most accurate - but 6 case splits is astounding to me.

I will take pictures when I go shooting again, perhaps this afternoon.

 

[Sarge111]

I can't offer much input...

on the Para-Ord but I have noted swelled brass from two guns in particular- a late 20's commercial Thompson, and Auto-Ordnance 1911's, most notably the Pit Bull. These guns both had oversize chambers (the Thompson for obvious reasons) and while I never shot Wolf through the Thompson, the A/O handled it just fine.

Individual specimen of various firearms can sure have a personality of their own, and you may have found one that just don't like that particular ammo. It definitely happens.

 

[BluesBear]

tpdtom, does your range allow you to recover your own brass?
All of the ranges I have found that exclude Wolf ammo also exclude Blazer Aluminum.
1) They just don't want to take the time to separate the loadable from the unloadable. Even though you can use a magnet to cull out the Wolf.
2) Their ventilation system can't handle the smell.

By the way that ruptured case you posted is NOT a .45ACP. A photo of a failed casing means nothing unless we have photos of the gun (especially the chamber area) also. That case couldn't have blown like that unless the chamber failed.

 

[bountyhunter]

Hmmmmmm.... What causes that? I would like to have a scientific explanation regarding cause.

Here it is:

Their ammo is pure horse s--t.

Sorry about all the technical verbage.

 

[Outlander]

The indoor range I go to has banned all Wolf ammo.

 

[phantom309]

I've shot 1000 rounds of the new .45 Wolf so far, 0 malfunctions. Shoots fine and it's almost as cheap as 9mm. It's dirty, but I can live with that.

 

[wingman]

I read on Makarov.com board they have had two kaboom's with wolf in past couple months. I would not use it unless it was an emergency, especially
in a quality 45. Most of it I have seen was overloaded + steel cases = a
no buy for me.

 

[shep854]

I bought a box of .45s yesterday, and the guy who runs the shop said he hasn't had any more problems than with other brands, including American. He also mentioned that he runs Wolf through his carry pistol.

$.02 worth.

 

[1911Tuner]

Splits

Splits? Splits.... Ain't that somethin' that cheerleaders do?

Wait! Nix that! Wrong thread. Sorry...It was Deja Vu all over again.

The explanation is pretty simple to those of us who reload...and get
the occasional split case with good brass. Brittleness. A brass case
that's been reloaded several times loses some of its malleability. It
gets brittle and splits lenghwise. Many bench-rest shooters anneal
their brass after 3-4 cycles to prevent splitting...and losing brass that
they've spent a lot of time on in preparation. I lose the occasional
.45 casing to splitting, and I discover the split during the resizing or
expanding/belling operation. In other words...the case splits on firing,
just like the ammo in question here.

The Wolff steel cases probably just weren't annealed properly from the git-go...and they split when the fire was lit.

Cheers!

Tuner, Poet Laureate of THR

 

[BluesBear]

Outlander, WHY has your local range banned Wolf?

I have found that most if not all of the ranges that ban Wolf do it because they don't want to take the trouble to cull it out when they sweep up the range brass.

One of my local ranges has banned Wold and Blazer for this very reason.
The other range where I actually shoot doesn't care. They discovered magnets years ago.




I have been tempted to do a Tuner style torture test on my Colt only using Wolf instead of PMC. I have yet to have any problems or malfunctions with Wolf in ths pistol. I am on my 4th case of it. And the Ballistol oder mixed with the Wolf stink actually is quite tolerable.

I did a mixed test last weekend. 565 rounds. 2 friends to help me convert Dollars into Decibels. Wolf, Blazer Aluminum, PMC, S&B, WWB, UMC, Fiocchi, MagTech ball ammo mixed with Hydra Shok, Gold Dots, Flying Ashtrays, XTPs, Golden Sabres, Silvertips, Starfires, H&G #68 Lead SWC reloads, 185 FMJ-WC midrange loads as well as a spattering of misc JHPs. All dumped into a GI .50 cal ammo can, stirred not shaken, and randomly loaded into magazines. I was tempted to fire some of the Super-Vel and Norma from my stash but I didn't. I even tossed in a 10 CCI Shot Shells for a hoot.

100% reliability again. Even handles the Shot Shells without so much as a hiccup. Shooting 2 litre soda bottles at 50 feet actually got boring. They were too easy to hit. So we switched to 16 & 20oz bottles for more of a challenge. With the shot shells the bottle will only twitch but the dust kicked up all around looks cool. The looks on their faces was priceless.

 

[bountyhunter]

The Wolff steel cases probably just weren't annealed properly from the git-go...and they split when the fire was lit.

Cheers!

Tuner, Poet Laureate of THR.

Tuner highlights one of the areas where Wolff will cause problems in some guns. Steel is not as flexible as brass. At ignition, the case pressure spikes and both a brass or steel case expands outward under the pressure. But, the brass is more springy so it "comes back" to size better and quicker. This affects what is called the "unlock cycle" of the gun. When the brass is expanded, it is "locked" to the wall of the barrel throat. The extractor has to pull the case out past whatever resistance or drag is there, and steel drags more than brass. This change in cycling dynamics makes many guns (especially ones with precisely fitted throats) choke on steel ammo. It's also the reason commie guns made to cycle it have sloppy/loose throats.

 

[bountyhunter]

That case couldn't have blown like that unless the chamber failed.

Not really. I have seen .38 sp cases split all the way down and they were loady for wimpy 130-gr/900 fps loads. It's like Tuner said: brittle metal fractures and then the pressure of the escaping gas opens it up like a can opener.

 

[BluesBear]

I stand by my diagnosis.

bountyhunter, I was referring to this rifle casing shown in tpdtom's post.

That's quite a bit more than a spilt! That's chamber failure.

Let's see one of Tuner's cheerleaders try that.

 

[Cool Hand Linc]

Interesting

I have shoot thousands of rounds of Wolf. I have spent a few dollars doing so as well.

I have 3 45's, 1 40cal, 2 380's and a few rifles I shoot Wolf through. I haven't had any issues with Wolf. non. I have also shoot many other brands without issue as well.

Before the price increases began occurring here lately, Wolf was a great alternative.

I have only had problems with one ammo I could attribute to the ammo. Silver Bear. Cases split and failed to return to battery. somewhere near 40% split. I only shot these in 45's. My brother shot them as well. I never bought anymore. We determined that there wasn't any real danger to the weapons so we shot them up.

Silver bear in my 30.06 was a different story. Most would not go to battery. Gently attempting to go to battery didn't work. I didn't want to apply great pressure to get them to battery so I would not shoot them if I could get them to battery with little effort. The ones that did go to battery split. I decided they had quality issues.

I do have a ak that has a chamber that was cut poorly. The wolf cases swell near the base but still feed and function fine. No issues other than note the case expansion. No splits or anything.

Here locally we have an indoor range that doesn't allow Wolf. They insist on brass only. They prefer you purchase their reloaded ammo. The charge way to much. I suspect they have a finantional reseason for speaking poorly of Wolf.

I'm a member of the largest gun club for about 500 miles. We allow anything but tracers and AP rounds. Tracers cause fires and AP damage the targets.

I suggest you get a box of many different types and fire them and inspect what happens to the cases. Somebody before said different guns like different ammo. Sometimes this proves true.

Between myself, my brother and several of our friends and the guys I talk to at the range. No issues with Wolf